Turkey shoots down Russian Jet
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Original post by Fullofsurprises
Sigh. How many times do we have to repeat that Russia has not been fighting "the enemy". Up to now, Russia has done everything it can to help the brutal and corrupt Assad government to cruelly attack well-meaning people who opposed the totalitarian tyranny they have been forced to live under for the last 50 years under the B'aathist government. (The same kind of government that Saddam practised in Iraq, complete with torture chambers for women and students and the like, no system of courts or justice, random arrests, disappeared people, etc, etc.)
What groups exactly have Russia been bombing?
As you know, Syria isn't just Assad vs FSA vs The IS.
Why does Russia do that? Because it sells weapons systems to Assad and because it is obsessed with cold war fantasies about owning a port on the Mediterranean which it does not need. For these and other reasons of nationalist ego and manipulation, Putin has been pulling out all the stops to keep a government in power that chucks barrels of burning oil out of helicopters onto schools.
What a load of anti-Russian nonsense.
It is only in the last few days that Russia has properly turned attention to ISIS and that is only because they blew up a Russian plane. Until then (and still) Russia was attacking our allies, people we want to help, people who have been struggling to bring about the Arab Spring in Syria and get rid of a thuggish dictatorship.
"Our allies" - including al-Nusra Front?
Russia "flew 141 bombing raids over Syria this weekend, destroying almost 500 ISIS targets in the country" (source).
"Russian airstrikes are focusing on opposition groups controlling northwestern Syria, including the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front, other Islamist groups such Ahrar al-Sham, and 'moderate' groups including the Free Syrian Army (FSA)." (Source.)
Have they attacked FSA held territory? Possibly. Are the FSA their primary target in Syria? No. Do they want to weaken other Islamist groups such as al-Nusra Front to strengthen Assad? Yes; and rightfully so.
It's a sad day when we call extremist groups "our allies"...
Original post by Josb
I think we should do a diplomatic shift towards Iran and Russia, and leave Turkey and the Saudis.
I second this motion.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
I don't think much will happen as a result of this, other than Russian pilots might start being more careful about where they fly and a bit less arrogant. The Russian authorities will probably try and blame it on a group of anti-Assad forces that they want to dispose of.
I don't think Russia will just let it be though. It isn't what they do. If a nation (as opposed to a terrorist group) downs one of their jets, I think they will feel compelled to reply.
[video="youtube;NKb9GVU8bHE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKb9GVU8bHE[/video]
Russia fight those on the ground who are fighting against the Assad regime, which isn't ISIS. Some of the groups Russia are fighting are fighting against ISIS, by doing so they are indirectly helping ISIS. Russia is not the good guy in all this and I don't see how they are any better than the Turkish state with it fighting the kurds.
As to Assad, you are doing exactly what he wants us to do. He deliberate released extreme Islamists into the rebel soup to make it impossible for western countries to support the rebels that want to overthrow him.
Original post by Gears265
Russia fight the enemy, Turkey instead hope the enemy destroy the Kurds, making Turkey an equivalent enemy. Russia have every right to bring hell on Turkey
Russia fight those on the ground who are fighting against the Assad regime, which isn't ISIS. Some of the groups Russia are fighting are fighting against ISIS, by doing so they are indirectly helping ISIS. Russia is not the good guy in all this and I don't see how they are any better than the Turkish state with it fighting the kurds.
As to Assad, you are doing exactly what he wants us to do. He deliberate released extreme Islamists into the rebel soup to make it impossible for western countries to support the rebels that want to overthrow him.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Gears265
Assad is the only viable solution. You need dictators and monsters to control the virus that is extremism in these countries. We needed Gaddafi, we needed Saddam, we needed Mubarak, they provided stability.
Anyone who directly fights Assad in Syria is the enemy, Russia needs to crush the rebel forces (or terrorists) and ISIS forces. You do realise rebel forces are on the doorstep of Damascus? They have to fight the rebels first because only then can Assad focus more on ISIS. Assad must be victorious in Syria if it is to have any future. The rebels and ISIS are an extremist group of terrorists, one of the same.
Assad must win, and we should stop getting involved in affairs that topple effective and valuable dictators who contain the enemy. The people in these regions are dangerous and they must be contained. ISIS are a cancer spreading across the region.
Anyone who directly fights Assad in Syria is the enemy, Russia needs to crush the rebel forces (or terrorists) and ISIS forces. You do realise rebel forces are on the doorstep of Damascus? They have to fight the rebels first because only then can Assad focus more on ISIS. Assad must be victorious in Syria if it is to have any future. The rebels and ISIS are an extremist group of terrorists, one of the same.
Assad must win, and we should stop getting involved in affairs that topple effective and valuable dictators who contain the enemy. The people in these regions are dangerous and they must be contained. ISIS are a cancer spreading across the region.
These arguments are false and smack of RT propaganda lines. There is no reason why we can't have secular democracies in the Middle East and many, many Arab peoples long for it. The problem is not the people but the interfering foreign powers like Russia (and the US and Europe) who have each backed their favourite pocket dictators, keeping the people in fear. Of course it would be very difficult and probably need extensive boots on the ground military involvement, because now the area is full of barking Salafist jihadis promoted by the chaos, but we could restore order - if we were willing. The mentality that we can safely leave it all to Russia is even more mad than trying to fix it ourselves. Doing nothing is now capitulating to Putin's crazy mentality anyway. Not that the Russian people really want another Afghanistan, as Putin will discover if he continues.
Original post by Illiberal Liberal
What groups exactly have Russia been bombing?
As you know, Syria isn't just Assad vs FSA vs The IS.
What a load of anti-Russian nonsense.
"Our allies" - including al-Nusra Front?
Russia "flew 141 bombing raids over Syria this weekend, destroying almost 500 ISIS targets in the country" (source).
"Russian airstrikes are focusing on opposition groups controlling northwestern Syria, including the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front, other Islamist groups such Ahrar al-Sham, and 'moderate' groups including the Free Syrian Army (FSA)." (Source.)
Have they attacked FSA held territory? Possibly. Are the FSA their primary target in Syria? No. Do they want to weaken other Islamist groups such as al-Nusra Front to strengthen Assad? Yes; and rightfully so.
It's a sad day when we call extremist groups "our allies"...
I second this motion.
As you know, Syria isn't just Assad vs FSA vs The IS.
What a load of anti-Russian nonsense.
"Our allies" - including al-Nusra Front?
Russia "flew 141 bombing raids over Syria this weekend, destroying almost 500 ISIS targets in the country" (source).
"Russian airstrikes are focusing on opposition groups controlling northwestern Syria, including the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front, other Islamist groups such Ahrar al-Sham, and 'moderate' groups including the Free Syrian Army (FSA)." (Source.)
Have they attacked FSA held territory? Possibly. Are the FSA their primary target in Syria? No. Do they want to weaken other Islamist groups such as al-Nusra Front to strengthen Assad? Yes; and rightfully so.
It's a sad day when we call extremist groups "our allies"...
I second this motion.
Nobody doubts that Russia have suddenly switched to attacking Caliphate forces. Why raise that when it's totally obvious they have only done so because ISIS stupidly (they must be completely bonkers, but then I suppose we already knew that) attacked one of their airliners?
Are you even dimly aware of what the Assad regime has really been like in Syria all these years? Do you realise that most of the Syrian people have lived with the fear and terror of a police state and that when the Arab Spring came, hundreds of thousands of them genuinely rebelled, not Islamists, but people wanting freedom? And that Assad's response was to kill, burn, torture and massacre? With Russia providing the weapons?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
One thing that absolutely must happen is to expel Turkey from NATO, yet the mad farce continues that they are treated as a NATO member and a potential EU one (perish the thought) and stop the charade of treating them as the 'one good Muslim state in the Middle East' as clearly they aren't any more, even if they once were.
And we must also retake constantinople. Give it to Italy.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There is no reason why we can't have secular democracies in the Middle East
The problem is... the interfering foreign powers like Russia (and the US and Europe)
Of course it would be very difficult and probably need extensive boots on the ground military involvement
we could restore order - if we were willing.
The problem is... the interfering foreign powers like Russia (and the US and Europe)
Of course it would be very difficult and probably need extensive boots on the ground military involvement
we could restore order - if we were willing.
I didn't think you were so interventionist...
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
[video="youtube;NKb9GVU8bHE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKb9GVU8bHE[/video]
Russia fight those on the ground who are fighting against the Assad regime, which isn't ISIS. Some of the groups Russia are fighting are fighting against ISIS. Russia is not the good guy in all this.
As to Assad, you are doing exactly what he wants us to do. He deliberate released extreme Islamists into the rebel soup to make it impossible for western countries to support the rebels that want to overthrow him.
Russia fight those on the ground who are fighting against the Assad regime, which isn't ISIS. Some of the groups Russia are fighting are fighting against ISIS. Russia is not the good guy in all this.
As to Assad, you are doing exactly what he wants us to do. He deliberate released extreme Islamists into the rebel soup to make it impossible for western countries to support the rebels that want to overthrow him.
You did not assume that I considered those terrorists as the enemy too
Original post by Gears265
Assad is the only viable solution. You need dictators and monsters to control the virus that is extremism in these countries. We needed Gaddafi, we needed Saddam, we needed Mubarak, they provided stability.
Anyone who directly fights Assad in Syria is the enemy, Russia needs to crush the rebel forces (or terrorists) and ISIS forces. You do realise rebel forces are on the doorstep of Damascus? They have to fight the rebels first because only then can Assad focus more on ISIS. Assad must be victorious in Syria if it is to have any future. The rebels and ISIS are an extremist group of terrorists, one of the same.
Assad must win, and we should stop getting involved in affairs that topple effective and valuable dictators who contain the enemy. The people in these regions are dangerous and they must be contained. ISIS are a cancer spreading across the region.
Anyone who directly fights Assad in Syria is the enemy, Russia needs to crush the rebel forces (or terrorists) and ISIS forces. You do realise rebel forces are on the doorstep of Damascus? They have to fight the rebels first because only then can Assad focus more on ISIS. Assad must be victorious in Syria if it is to have any future. The rebels and ISIS are an extremist group of terrorists, one of the same.
Assad must win, and we should stop getting involved in affairs that topple effective and valuable dictators who contain the enemy. The people in these regions are dangerous and they must be contained. ISIS are a cancer spreading across the region.
Sunnis will never accept Assad. He used chemical weapons against them.
I think we should create an Alawite State on the coast, between Lebanon and Turkey, with Assad as president. So the Russians will be happy as they would keep their naval base; Bachar would still be a head of State.
As it would remove the Russians and Assad from the equation, the war in Syria would uniquely be against or for ISIS. Currently, many rebels fight Assad, with this solution they would only have to fight ISIS.
It should also be mentioned that after WWI, it was scheduled to create an Alawite State (as well as a Kurdish one), but the cowardice of the Brits and the French prevailed. Moreover, in Syria, the French thought that a multi-ethnic State was easier to control. Same with the Brits in Irak.
Now we reap what we sow.
How is Assad the solution to ISIS?
It's only a solution if you crave stability. It isn't a solution if you care about the people who are going to have to live in the middleeast under these kind of regimes.
It's only a solution if you crave stability. It isn't a solution if you care about the people who are going to have to live in the middleeast under these kind of regimes.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Nobody doubts that Russia have suddenly switched to attacking Caliphate forces. Why raise that when it's totally obvious they have only done so because ISIS stupidly (they must be completely bonkers, but then I suppose we already knew that) attacked one of their airliners?
Russia have been attacking The Islamic State before that incident; that incident merely caused them to intensity their attacks on The IS.
Frankly, as Lavrov said: “If it looks like a terrorist, if it acts like a terrorist, if it walks like a terrorist, if it fights like a terrorist, it’s a terrorist, right?". (He also then said he did not consider the FSA a terrorist group, before you get angry about Lavrov upsetting our terrorist "allies".)
Are you even dimly aware of what the Assad regime has really been like in Syria all these years? Do you realise that most of the Syrian people have lived with the fear and terror of a police state and that when the Arab Spring came, hundreds of thousands of them genuinely rebelled, not Islamists, but people wanting freedom? And that Assad's response was to kill, burn, torture and massacre? With Russia providing the weapons?
"Kill, burn, torture and massacre"
This language only serves to undermine the message you are trying to convey.
Yes, the civil war was borne out of legitimate democratic protests (although I'm not so sure about this involving "hundreds of thousands" of Syrians...). But that is no longer the reality; many of these so called protesters took up arms and formed the FSA, but many others joined other extremist groups. And foreign fighters then flowed in to oppose Assad for their own ends.
No one is denying the illegitimacy of Assad, but with the country already in chaos, a power vacuum is the last thing Syria needs. In terms of feasibility, the dichotomy is Syrian regime (not necessarily Assad) vs The IS. I support Russia's decision in backing the former.
From the guardian.
The downing of the russian jet sparked grave concerns in greece, turkeys neighbour and for years its nato rival.
Apparently turkey consistently violate greek airspace too.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The downing of the russian jet sparked grave concerns in greece, turkeys neighbour and for years its nato rival.
Apparently turkey consistently violate greek airspace too.
Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 8 years ago)
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets
Second pilot found dead and a Russian helicopter also shot down (apparently...)
Time to see just how good this new Russian War Room is...
Second pilot found dead and a Russian helicopter also shot down (apparently...)
Time to see just how good this new Russian War Room is...
Spoiler
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
How is Assad the solution to ISIS?
It's only a solution if you crave stability. It isn't a solution if you care about the people who are going to have to live in the middleeast under these kind of regimes.
It's only a solution if you crave stability. It isn't a solution if you care about the people who are going to have to live in the middleeast under these kind of regimes.
He offers stability before a democratic vote is set up.
Wonder how Russia will respond. Hopefully they arm the kurds to ***** off the turks.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
How is Assad the solution to ISIS?
It's only a solution if you crave stability. It isn't a solution if you care about the people who are going to have to live in the middleeast under these kind of regimes.
It's only a solution if you crave stability. It isn't a solution if you care about the people who are going to have to live in the middleeast under these kind of regimes.
You must be a Bush and Blair sympathiser, thinking we should impose our western superior complex on countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya?
Assad is the solution. We either have him, rebel terrorists or ISIS, I know who I prefer
what will Mr Putin have for Christmas Dinner ?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01546/p_perfect-christma_1546090c.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01546/p_perfect-christma_1546090c.jpg
Original post by Illiberal Liberal
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets
Second pilot found dead and a Russian helicopter also shot down (apparently...)
Time to see just how good this new Russian War Room is...
Second pilot found dead and a Russian helicopter also shot down (apparently...)
Time to see just how good this new Russian War Room is...
Spoiler
Is the Russian helicopter confirmed?
Original post by Bill_Gates
Is the Russian helicopter confirmed?
Nope; merely getting a lot of traction on Twitter.
I can't imagine Turkey would shoot down a Russian helicopter looking for the pilots of the Russian jet they just shot down. Erdogan is a brave man if so...
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