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New York bar exam a good option for an international career?

I'm a first year mature student on the LLB, and my partner and I plan to move to Asia in the next few years (based on the languages we speak and our connections). I have been told about the option of sitting the New York bar exam through the organisation Barbri International. This is what I know: following graduation from the LLB, you pay between £4-£5K to do a Barbri five month preparation course and then sit the bar exam in New York. This qualifies you as a US attorney. You can then apply to do the QLTS to become UK qualified if you wish.
Apparently, you can then easily get a job as an associate solicitor in a firm in the US or international firms in other places like Asia.
How feasible is this? Will international firms really want to hire me as a qualified US attorney, with no experience as a practising solicitor? How would I find jobs?
If this option really is realistic, it would be an excellent one for me and others who wish to go abroad immediately after graduating. I just want to know how I would find an associates jobs abroad with as an attorney and how likely this would be.
I'd welcome responses from people who have some real information about this option.
Reply 1
Original post by J-SP
I don't know much about Asian recruitment processes, and I suspect it depends where in Asia you actually end up, but getting work in the US is not going to be easy via this route. Most US firms will expect you to have a JD, maybe a LLM if you are lucky. I wouldn't expect people to be hired as a US attorney in the US via this route - it might happen but it will be very rare.

The danger with doing this route is that you are over qualified but under experienced. You will not get an associate level job in England or in somewhere like Hong Kong as you will not have the equivalent of a training contract and the experience within it. You will be competing in a market where associate level roles are filled by people with more experience than you.

In short, if you turn up anywhere with just a LLB and the New York Bar under your belt, and expect to get an associate level role, in the majority of instances you will have very little to no chance of securing work as the people you are competing in the job market with will either have higher levels of qualifications than you and/or years' of work experience you wont have.


Thanks for your advice! This is basically what I thought, based on common sense, when this option was suggested to me! Do you know any more about the options enabling one to work abroad quickly/qualify abroad?
Reply 2
Original post by J-SP
There isn't really one - qualification routes are there for a reason. It really depends on where you want to work - Asia is a big continent with lots of different jurisdictions all with their different processes. You need to look into the specific requirements of the countries that you are looking at.


It would be Korea, Japan (or possibly HK). According to my research I would only need to be UK qualified (via LPC and training contract) to work for an international firm in these countries. The same applies to Singapore and China I believe. In my mind if a firm is international, working primarily in English and working on an English jurisdiction, there is no reason why one couldn't do a training contract in that country. If firms are global, surely their training should be also. However, I don't think this happens.
Original post by Lucika
It would be Korea, Japan (or possibly HK). According to my research I would only need to be UK qualified (via LPC and training contract) to work for an international firm in these countries. The same applies to Singapore and China I believe. In my mind if a firm is international, working primarily in English and working on an English jurisdiction, there is no reason why one couldn't do a training contract in that country. If firms are global, surely their training should be also. However, I don't think this happens.


I did my Law undergrad in the UK, and will commence my TC in an international law firm in HK next year. I think some firms do Korean work out of their HK office (Allen and Overy comes to mind), but haven't heard of this being done for Japan.

I guess the main problem would be that with only a NY Bar, it would be difficult to sell yourself as a US Law Consultant. I asked the graduate recruiting partner from my firm about this, and he said that without a JD or US LLM, it's unlikely that I would have enough expertise for them to feel comfortable putting me in front of clients. If you're selling yourself as an English lawyer, then the question would be why aren't you taking the usual route of doing a TC.

Personally, I think you should consider applying straight to graduate positions in Asia directly seeing that you already have language fluency. You wouldn't need to worry about whether a vacancy will come up at the right time for you to be seconded permanently (which can be problematic if you want to work in a small office), and you can build your network.
Reply 4
Original post by mishieru07
I did my Law undergrad in the UK, and will commence my TC in an international law firm in HK next year. I think some firms do Korean work out of their HK office (Allen and Overy comes to mind), but haven't heard of this being done for Japan.

I guess the main problem would be that with only a NY Bar, it would be difficult to sell yourself as a US Law Consultant. I asked the graduate recruiting partner from my firm about this, and he said that without a JD or US LLM, it's unlikely that I would have enough expertise for them to feel comfortable putting me in front of clients. If you're selling yourself as an English lawyer, then the question would be why aren't you taking the usual route of doing a TC.

Personally, I think you should consider applying straight to graduate positions in Asia directly seeing that you already have language fluency. You wouldn't need to worry about whether a vacancy will come up at the right time for you to be seconded permanently (which can be problematic if you want to work in a small office), and you can build your network.


That's really interesting. In your experience, what are the opportunities available for LLB graduates in Asia? How did you get a TC in HK? How common is your experience? Are you working for a large global firm or a local firm may I ask? Thanks for your advice
Original post by Lucika
That's really interesting. In your experience, what are the opportunities available for LLB graduates in Asia? How did you get a TC in HK? How common is your experience? Are you working for a large global firm or a local firm may I ask? Thanks for your advice


I can only speak for HK (and to a lesser extent, my home jurisdiction of Singapore), but I would say HK is pretty good. A lot of the international law firms have offices here, pay is very decent (I had a quick look at rollonfriday - it appears to be slightly above the London office of my firm for trainees + HK has far lower tax rates), and the TC itself is very similar to what you'd get in the UK (2 years with rotations and secondment opportunities). As I understand it, firms are generally committed to keeping their trainees because the cohorts are much smaller, so retention rates are extremely high. However, most of the international law firms in HK focus on Corporate, Finance and Disputes, so more niche seats like Employment and Tax won't be available unless you choose to go to a local or specialist firm.

International law firms in HK recruit predominantly through vacation schemes (eg http://www.allenovery.com/careers/hong-kong/en-gb/students-and-graduates/Pages/default.aspx), which run from June to August. Most last a month, although some last 2-3 weeks (eg Slaughter & May). The same timeline applies - offers are given two years in advance, so you probably should be looking to apply this year (ie now) for summer vacation schemes in 2016 with a bid to securing a 2018 Training Contract, unless you want to take an additional year out.

I should also add that fluency in Mandarin Chinese is very important; I have heard of people being taken on without it, but you're at a definite disadvantage (although in your case, you might be able to substitute with Japanese/ Korean if the firm does that sort of work out of the HK office). Fluency in Cantonese would be useful socially, but isn't necessary for work purposes.

Once you secure an offer, you need to take the Conversion Examinations (http://www.pcea.com.hk/); there are two sittings each year in January and June. You must finish all your Conversion Exams before you'll be allowed to enrol on the PCLL (HK's LPC), which lasts a year.

I'll be working for a UK MC firm. For local firms, I imagine fluency in Cantonese is important (which I lack).
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 6
Original post by mishieru07
I can only speak for HK (and to a lesser extent, my home jurisdiction of Singapore), but I would say HK is pretty good. A lot of the international law firms have offices here, pay is very decent (I had a quick look at rollonfriday - it appears to be slightly above the London office of my firm for trainees + HK has far lower tax rates), and the TC itself is very similar to what you'd get in the UK (2 years with rotations and secondment opportunities). As I understand it, firms are generally committed to keeping their trainees because the cohorts are much smaller, so retention rates are extremely high. However, most of the international law firms in HK focus on Corporate, Finance and Disputes, so more niche seats like Employment and Tax won't be available unless you choose to go to a local or specialist firm.

International law firms in HK recruit predominantly through vacation schemes (eg http://www.allenovery.com/careers/hong-kong/en-gb/students-and-graduates/Pages/default.aspx), which run from June to August. Most last a month, although some last 2-3 weeks (eg Slaughter & May). The same timeline applies - offers are given two years in advance, so you probably should be looking to apply this year (ie now) for summer vacation schemes in 2016 with a bid to securing a 2018 Training Contract, unless you want to take an additional year out.

I should also add that fluency in Mandarin Chinese is very important; I have heard of people being taken on without it, but you're at a definite disadvantage (although in your case, you might be able to substitute with Japanese/ Korean if the firm does that sort of work out of the HK office). Fluency in Cantonese would be useful socially, but isn't necessary for work purposes.

Once you secure an offer, you need to take the Conversion Examinations (http://www.pcea.com.hk/); there are two sittings each year in January and June. You must finish all your Conversion Exams before you'll be allowed to enrol on the PCLL (HK's LPC), which lasts a year.

I'll be working for a UK MC firm. For local firms, I imagine fluency in Cantonese is important (which I lack).


Thank you very much. The option to do a TC abroad seems very poorly publicised as everyone I have spoken to doesn't think its possible! It's really refreshing to hear from someone who has actually done it. Thanks for your advice, I will certainly be pursuing this!
Original post by Lucika
Thank you very much. The option to do a TC abroad seems very poorly publicised as everyone I have spoken to doesn't think its possible! It's really refreshing to hear from someone who has actually done it. Thanks for your advice, I will certainly be pursuing this!


Good luck! Feel free to ask me if you have more questions. You can google the Hong Kong law fair booklets (eg http://www.lse.ac.uk/intranet/CareersAndVacancies/careersService/CareersEvents/CareersFairs/HKLawFair2013Brochure.pdf) if you want more information.

If you're interested in working in Singapore, a small handful of international law firms have started offering Singapore-based training contracts recently (Allen & Overy, Clifford Chance, Latham & Watkins, and Freshfields I think), so that might be worth looking into as well. I think it would be more difficult to convince a local firm to take you, but you can try applying if you want.

Original post by J-SP
It is possible, but particularly in the case of somewhere like HK, you only become qualified in that local jurisdiction. Opportunities for HK are promoted pretty heavily, especially to Oxford, Cambridge and London universities - there are annual events and careers fairs dedicated to them, although have already taken place this year.

For other countries/jurisdictions there is little need to promote the vacancies in the UK - they have enough demand from local/regional students.

Remember for many countries you will also need to right to work there. Getting work permits are not necessarily straight forward and therefore you may need some form of ancestry rights to work in that country if you are not a born native.


Wouldn't qualification always be jurisdiction specific though? I was under the impression that being qualified in the UK does not necessarily allow one to qualify straight into other jurisdictions either. Singapore for example requires foreign lawyers to sit for some exams before they can become foreign practitioners (they can't get called to the Singapore Bar unless they're a citizen/ permanent resident).

Yeah OP should definitely check each jurisdiction carefully - some are definitely more foreigner-friendly than others. HK's pretty relaxed on immigration if you can get an employer to sponsor you (In contrast, some of my friends are quite worried about the UK visa situation); there's a decent number of non-local trainees and lawyers. I've no clue about Japan or Korea though.
Original post by J-SP
Not necessarily - I have known English qualifying training contracts to be based in Spain, Moscow and Dubai, but that was because there was a clear demand for it and they weren't qualifying in that jurisdiction - they were only qualifying as English lawyers. These were incredibly rare though because of the reasons I have mentioned before (training/appropriate line managers/support/costs etc). For most jurisdictions there is far more sense in training up local qualifying trainees and then rely on secondments from the English offices (its usually cheaper and easier for them).


Ahh alright - I think I misunderstood you as saying that qualifying in UK would allow for automatic qualification in another jurisdiction! My bad.

Actually, interestingly enough, the TCs offered in Singapore by international law firms are exactly what you've mentioned (ie trainees will be England qualified rather than Singapore qualified even though they're based in Singapore), with the exception of Clifford Chance. I'm guessing the main reason is that foreign firms aren't allowed to take local trainees unless they do so in partnership with a local firm.
Do a TC in the UK, at a city firm.
Get seconded to preferred jurisdiction.
Elect to qualify into that seat: not many do it, but it does happen.
Et Voila.
You have to pass certain exams to qualify in Asia if you do your degree here. Worth researching into.
No need to qualify immediately, just get seconded. Qualify later if you decide to stay.
Original post by Fermionic
Do a TC in the UK, at a city firm.
Get seconded to preferred jurisdiction.
Elect to qualify into that seat: not many do it, but it does happen.
Et Voila.


I'm not sure you'd be allowed to qualify into a foreign seat (depends on the firm I suppose), or that you'd be granted a permanent secondment to your preferred office. I asked about transferring between offices, and the reply I got was it really depends on staffing and whether they have a need for someone with your skills and experience. In particular, if OP is aiming for the smaller offices (eg Japan), there's no telling whether a vacancy will arise at the right time for him to transfer.
Original post by mishieru07
I'm not sure you'd be allowed to qualify into a foreign seat (depends on the firm I suppose), or that you'd be granted a permanent secondment to your preferred office. I asked about transferring between offices, and the reply I got was it really depends on staffing and whether they have a need for someone with your skills and experience. In particular, if OP is aiming for the smaller offices (eg Japan), there's no telling whether a vacancy will arise at the right time for him to transfer.


You would be and people at my firm do it with varying regularity; most don't because they want to stay in London post-secondment (which many see as a holiday). As for permanence, I do agree with you there, usually they're for 2-4 years. However, if permanence is what you're looking for then moving firm whilst on (post-qualification) secondment would probably work. Most people take the relevant qualifications (e.g. For HK) whilst on the extended secondment anyway. Transferring into a permanent role on a local contract wouldn't be an issue for someone at a global firm.
Reply 14
Slightly off topic, but still relevant..

Is being UK, HK or US qualified more useful if one intends to become a foreign lawyer in Singapore? What is the demand for lawyers from other jurisdictions like over there?
Original post by kalntax
Slightly off topic, but still relevant..

Is being UK, HK or US qualified more useful if one intends to become a foreign lawyer in Singapore? What is the demand for lawyers from other jurisdictions like over there?


I actually don't know much about the demand for foreign lawyers currently (and it'll probably change again in a few years' time anyway), but you can take a look at the available opportunities on law firms' websites to see what they're currently recruiting for.

As regards which qualification is more useful, it really depends on what type of work you're doing, and which firm. If you look at Latham's website, for example, they advise clients on US, English, and Singapore law, so US and UK would obviously be directly relevant. HK would also be relevant as it's very similar to English law (+ there's always QLTS). I've heard of people being sent from the UK and HK to Singapore, and I imagine that's probably true for the US attorneys too.

There's also a further question of expertise that you need to think about - lateral recruitment tends to be specific (eg they're looking for a Corporate associate with 3-4 years PQE who has international experience). If you want to train overseas but have the flexibility of moving back (I'm going to assume you're a Singaporean asking about your options), your best bet is to stick with international law firms, and qualify into the bigger practice groups like Corporate and Finance. Opportunities for foreign lawyers in niche areas like Employment are probably rarer, if they exist at all, and qualifying with local/ regional firms probably won't really help your chances either.

If you fulfill the Singapore bar requirements (citizen or PR + recognized law degree), you also get the additional option of qualifying for the Singapore Bar and joining a local law firm. The impression I got speaking to some Big 4 partners was that they do take people who trained and qualified overseas, and not infrequently.

If you're an English-educated lawyer without a further US qualification (which again I'm assuming you are since you're posting on a UK-based website), bear in mind that it is unlikely that an international law firm would be comfortable staffing you as a US attorney even if you are technically US qualified
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 16
Original post by mishieru07
I actually don't know much about the demand for foreign lawyers currently (and it'll probably change again in a few years' time anyway), but you can take a look at the available opportunities on law firms' websites to see what they're currently recruiting for.

As regards which qualification is more useful, it really depends on what type of work you're doing, and which firm. If you look at Latham's website, for example, they advise clients on US, English, and Singapore law, so US and UK would obviously be directly relevant. HK would also be relevant as it's very similar to English law (+ there's always QLTS). I've heard of people being sent from the UK and HK to Singapore, and I imagine that's probably true for the US attorneys too.

There's also a further question of expertise that you need to think about - lateral recruitment tends to be specific (eg they're looking for a Corporate associate with 3-4 years PQE who has international experience). If you want to train overseas but have the flexibility of moving back (I'm going to assume you're a Singaporean asking about your options), your best bet is to stick with international law firms, and qualify into the bigger practice groups like Corporate and Finance. Opportunities for foreign lawyers in niche areas like Employment are probably rarer, if they exist at all, and qualifying with local/ regional firms probably won't really help your chances either.

If you fulfill the Singapore bar requirements (citizen or PR + recognized law degree), you also get the additional option of qualifying for the Singapore Bar and joining a local law firm. The impression I got speaking to some Big 4 partners was that they do take people who trained and qualified overseas, and not infrequently.

If you're an English-educated lawyer without a further US qualification (which again I'm assuming you are since you're posting on a UK-based website), bear in mind that it is unlikely that an international law firm would be comfortable staffing you as a US attorney even if you are technically US qualified


WOW. Thanks Mishieru for the detailed reply!
My situation is a little more complicated, and I am not a Singaporean or PR..

I hope you don't mind if I PM you, I do need some advice.
Original post by Lucika
I'm a first year mature student on the LLB, and my partner and I plan to move to Asia in the next few years (based on the languages we speak and our connections). I have been told about the option of sitting the New York bar exam through the organisation Barbri International. This is what I know: following graduation from the LLB, you pay between £4-£5K to do a Barbri five month preparation course and then sit the bar exam in New York. This qualifies you as a US attorney. You can then apply to do the QLTS to become UK qualified if you wish.
Apparently, you can then easily get a job as an associate solicitor in a firm in the US or international firms in other places like Asia.
How feasible is this? Will international firms really want to hire me as a qualified US attorney, with no experience as a practising solicitor? How would I find jobs?
If this option really is realistic, it would be an excellent one for me and others who wish to go abroad immediately after graduating. I just want to know how I would find an associates jobs abroad with as an attorney and how likely this would be.
I'd welcome responses from people who have some real information about this option.



Hand around and try for a training contract at an international firm in the UK or a firm which has connections or practices international [or] multi jurisdictional areas such as shipping, finance and contracts etc.
To mishieru07: Are the results of the exams in GDL important? Or to pass all the exams is enough?

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