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It's only the same as the anti-ex-poly vibes that float around TSR. It is constantly said that ex-poly students are marked more leniently therefore the implication is that we don't really deserve the marks we achieve. Don't you think that equally drives us mad / upsets us? Plus the fact it is also implied (well actually I was told straight out by my ex-poly tutor!) that it's more difficult to get a job even with a 2:1/1st because employers do attach some weight to the institution.
It could be argued that people at oxbridge have to work harder to stay there; but the flip side is that people at ex-polys have to do so much more extra-curriculars / have a part time job / extra work experience etc to bolster their CV on top of their degree...
I have a friend at Cambridge; she got a 2:1 and bloody well deserved it, she had to work so hard. But her work-ex was limited to one occasion, and she had no particular extra-curriculars. I worked my ass off too, got a 1st so I could stand out as I was ex-poly, had to do stacks of extra stuff, a job, work experience etc. We both got vac schemes (how we met) and TC offers
So you could look at it both ways
I am under no illusion that a 1st from Cambridge will be looked at more favourably than my 1st from an ex-poly, but at the end of the day your viewpoint is always going to depend on where you study. It's upsetting to have your achievements belittled either way so people are always going to take it personally.
It could be argued that people at oxbridge have to work harder to stay there; but the flip side is that people at ex-polys have to do so much more extra-curriculars / have a part time job / extra work experience etc to bolster their CV on top of their degree...
I have a friend at Cambridge; she got a 2:1 and bloody well deserved it, she had to work so hard. But her work-ex was limited to one occasion, and she had no particular extra-curriculars. I worked my ass off too, got a 1st so I could stand out as I was ex-poly, had to do stacks of extra stuff, a job, work experience etc. We both got vac schemes (how we met) and TC offers
So you could look at it both ways
I am under no illusion that a 1st from Cambridge will be looked at more favourably than my 1st from an ex-poly, but at the end of the day your viewpoint is always going to depend on where you study. It's upsetting to have your achievements belittled either way so people are always going to take it personally.
Sorry for that rant, I think it's been building up a while
It's the result of three years of people subtly assuming that I only got into Cambridge because I went to private school (which, incidentally, I had a scholarship to, one that I had to work hard to keep), and realised that for the rest of my life people will probably assume that anything I have I only got because of Cambridge. I think at the end of the day everyone works hard to get a TC, no matter where it's from or how many ECs you have (I'm quite depressed at having failed at securing a VS despite plotting for years to set myself up perfectly EC wise and putting a huge amount of prep into the apps)
It's the result of three years of people subtly assuming that I only got into Cambridge because I went to private school (which, incidentally, I had a scholarship to, one that I had to work hard to keep), and realised that for the rest of my life people will probably assume that anything I have I only got because of Cambridge. I think at the end of the day everyone works hard to get a TC, no matter where it's from or how many ECs you have (I'm quite depressed at having failed at securing a VS despite plotting for years to set myself up perfectly EC wise and putting a huge amount of prep into the apps)
Absolutely agree with you there, Naelse. Reversed snobbery is rife these days, and I think unjustly so in this case. I fought extremely hard to get into Oxford, and then worked even harder to get my 2:1 because the degree I took demanded it. I'm not saying that the exams at newer universities are easier because I actually don't think that's the case, but the structure of the courses, the style of examination and the fact that students must cope with a very high workload throughout their course all give degrees from Oxford and Cambridge their value. I am now discovering that people judge me when they find out where I went to uni, and automatically assume I must have attended an independent school and been coached for entry, or else they think I went to Brookes because I don't fit the classic stereotypes. So it's not as great as you may think, especially as it is now considered a good thing for employers to reduce their Oxbridge intake.
naelse
Sorry for that rant, I think it's been building up a while
Lol don't worry, I've been known to get on my soapbox about people undermining my degree because it's from an ex-poly!!
naelse
and realised that for the rest of my life people will probably assume that anything I have I only got because of Cambridge
They probably will. But don't worry about it
Anyone that is unjustifable vile about it and can't have a reasoned discussion about how you achieved what you have isn't worth it anyway, same as people that write me off when I say "Leeds Met" without listening to anything else I have to say.
bleugh
Absolutely agree with you there, Naelse. Reversed snobbery is rife these days, and I think unjustly so in this case. I fought extremely hard to get into Oxford, and then worked even harder to get my 2:1 because the degree I took demanded it. I'm not saying that the exams at newer universities are easier because I actually don't think that's the case, but the structure of the courses, the style of examination and the fact that students must cope with a very high workload throughout their course all give degrees from Oxford and Cambridge their value. I am now discovering that people judge me when they find out where I went to uni, and automatically assume I must have attended an independent school and been coached for entry, or else they think I went to Brookes because I don't fit the classic stereotypes. So it's not as great as you may think, especially as it is now considered a good thing for employers to reduce their Oxbridge intake.
I'm playing the world's smallest violin for you
I can't believe you expect me to believe that
1) there is any significant "anti-Oxbridge" sentiment in this thread
2) that we should feel bad for you that people might judge you unfairly. Meanwhile there are loads of people at ex-polys who may get judged unfairly. The difference is the judgement on the ex-poly people means that they will have to struggle much more than you to get good jobs.
Ridiculous.
Why do people constantly feel the need to put each other down on here?! We've accepted there are prejudices and we all suffer from them in one way or another, so why feed into them and make people feel bad about being affected by them?! All bleugh and Naelse were saying was that an Oxbridge degree IS really hard work and there is constant pressure on us, particularly when it comes to a few exams near the end that count for absolutely everything! Don't take it as slighting other degrees, or saying 'here's my sob story, feel sorry for me' - just as a contribution to the 'worth of degrees' debate.
It's very difficult to say anything on here without offending people, because there is always the odd exception to the rule, and I'm not meaning to contribute my 'sob story' either, but I personally find Cambridge very difficult and very stressful. People here work really hard all the time - and this term it is absolutely insane! That is not a slight on other universities, it is just a statement about this one. I know the degree ought to be of equal worth to one at another university, but I can't see how it can be, because it is just so stressful and so competitive here, and from what I've seen of other universities the culture at them just isn't the same. As I said, there are always exceptions to the rule, but that's just my experience. Also, the structure of the course is different at other universities, some are modular, some have coursework - we don't - it's all down to exams in the summer. I'm sure there are probably other universities that do it this way, and I'm not saying one way is better or worse than another, it's just that different people learn in different ways, and it is very difficult to do well here if that way doesn't suit you personally.
Personally I just don't believe we can compare them, not knowing what the other one is like. I'm not saying that someone with a 2.ii from Oxbridge is more worth hiring than someone with a 1st from an ex-poly, but I am saying that I can understand why someone who was hard-working and intelligent might get a 2.ii at Oxbridge, and they might still turn out to be a good lawyer in practice, just having stressed out and messed up over a couple of days on which their degree was based! Also, here we are assuming one's ability to obtain high marks in an academic degree really reflects their ability to do a job in practice - I don't know how true this is myself. Some people might be too into the philosophical/theoretical side of things to really apply stuff in a common sense way to real life - these people are probably better suited for academia. I don't mean that top firms are going to wave their strict 2.i policies to ponder on these issues much - they don't really need to - I'm just opening up the argument to look at the bigger picture, I guess!
Personally, I'm in first year and am terrified of not getting a 2.i because I know it will disadvantage me, but we'll have to see what happens. I'm sure there are jobs out there I would be able to do, so I guess it's not worth worrying about it, and I kind of figure if I can't handle the stress of Cambridge enough to get a good grade I probably couldn't handle working in a big city firm - but that's just me!
Oh, and as regards the rower who got a job with a 2.ii I can kind of believe it - there are all sorts of weird things that go on with rowers as far as I've heard. The blues teams apparently get taken out by city banks and so on - I know it sounds stupid and wrong, but they seem to gain connections just by rowing for Oxford or Cambridge. I think it's because it's such a big commitment and you have to be so hard-working and dedicated to it, and because it's such a team sport, graduate employers quite like the rowers because they know that they're going to work hard. I mean, I wouldn't judge these guys too hard, they still have to get a degree whilst training for rowing practically as if it's their job - I'm sure people make allowances for them, but I can't imagine how they have time to do it all!
It's very difficult to say anything on here without offending people, because there is always the odd exception to the rule, and I'm not meaning to contribute my 'sob story' either, but I personally find Cambridge very difficult and very stressful. People here work really hard all the time - and this term it is absolutely insane! That is not a slight on other universities, it is just a statement about this one. I know the degree ought to be of equal worth to one at another university, but I can't see how it can be, because it is just so stressful and so competitive here, and from what I've seen of other universities the culture at them just isn't the same. As I said, there are always exceptions to the rule, but that's just my experience. Also, the structure of the course is different at other universities, some are modular, some have coursework - we don't - it's all down to exams in the summer. I'm sure there are probably other universities that do it this way, and I'm not saying one way is better or worse than another, it's just that different people learn in different ways, and it is very difficult to do well here if that way doesn't suit you personally.
Personally I just don't believe we can compare them, not knowing what the other one is like. I'm not saying that someone with a 2.ii from Oxbridge is more worth hiring than someone with a 1st from an ex-poly, but I am saying that I can understand why someone who was hard-working and intelligent might get a 2.ii at Oxbridge, and they might still turn out to be a good lawyer in practice, just having stressed out and messed up over a couple of days on which their degree was based! Also, here we are assuming one's ability to obtain high marks in an academic degree really reflects their ability to do a job in practice - I don't know how true this is myself. Some people might be too into the philosophical/theoretical side of things to really apply stuff in a common sense way to real life - these people are probably better suited for academia. I don't mean that top firms are going to wave their strict 2.i policies to ponder on these issues much - they don't really need to - I'm just opening up the argument to look at the bigger picture, I guess!
Personally, I'm in first year and am terrified of not getting a 2.i because I know it will disadvantage me, but we'll have to see what happens. I'm sure there are jobs out there I would be able to do, so I guess it's not worth worrying about it, and I kind of figure if I can't handle the stress of Cambridge enough to get a good grade I probably couldn't handle working in a big city firm - but that's just me!
Oh, and as regards the rower who got a job with a 2.ii I can kind of believe it - there are all sorts of weird things that go on with rowers as far as I've heard. The blues teams apparently get taken out by city banks and so on - I know it sounds stupid and wrong, but they seem to gain connections just by rowing for Oxford or Cambridge. I think it's because it's such a big commitment and you have to be so hard-working and dedicated to it, and because it's such a team sport, graduate employers quite like the rowers because they know that they're going to work hard. I mean, I wouldn't judge these guys too hard, they still have to get a degree whilst training for rowing practically as if it's their job - I'm sure people make allowances for them, but I can't imagine how they have time to do it all!
milly87
Why do people constantly feel the need to put each other down on here?! We've accepted there are prejudices and we all suffer from them in one way or another, so why feed into them and make people feel bad about being affected by them?! All bleugh and Naelse were saying was that an Oxbridge degree IS really hard work and there is constant pressure on us, particularly when it comes to a few exams near the end that count for absolutely everything! Don't take it as slighting other degrees, or saying 'here's my sob story, feel sorry for me' - just as a contribution to the 'worth of degrees' debate
This thread isn't actually a "constant need" to put other people down; I actually think it's one of the more balanced debates we've had on TSR!
I think everyone has accepted that there are advantages and disadvantages to studying at both an ex-poly and Oxbridge, and students at both have to work very hard and are under pressure in different ways.
shady lane
I'm playing the world's smallest violin for you
I can't believe you expect me to believe that
1) there is any significant "anti-Oxbridge" sentiment in this thread
2) that we should feel bad for you that people might judge you unfairly. Meanwhile there are loads of people at ex-polys who may get judged unfairly. The difference is the judgement on the ex-poly people means that they will have to struggle much more than you to get good jobs.
Ridiculous.
I can't believe you expect me to believe that
1) there is any significant "anti-Oxbridge" sentiment in this thread
2) that we should feel bad for you that people might judge you unfairly. Meanwhile there are loads of people at ex-polys who may get judged unfairly. The difference is the judgement on the ex-poly people means that they will have to struggle much more than you to get good jobs.
Ridiculous.
Yes, it really looks like we're all in agreement and perfect harmony, doesn't it?
freckles29
Yes, it really looks like we're all in agreement and perfect harmony, doesn't it?
Sarcasm isn't going to help. (I'd expect better from someone from Cambridge
)I think Shady Lane was trying to say that it's not an outright anti-Oxbridge attack; it's a debate about ex-polys/pros/cons/weight attached to uni/etc/etc.
ellewoods
Sarcasm isn't going to help. (I'd expect better from someone from Cambridge )
)Yawn. I was sarcastic because its blindingly obvious that not everybody agrees. Some people think that there is anti-oxbridge feeling and others feel it is 'ridiculous'.
Glad you would expect better from me because of my degree though. And there was me feeling all disadvantaged and sorry for myself.
Come on people no need to get petty and all.
Lewisy-boy
Come on people no need to get petty and all.
But I'm a lawyer, Lewis. I can't help being petty. Naughty freckles.
The truth of the matter is, there are some people who will judge those who went to ex-polys. There are some who will judge oxbridge types. Its no big deal. If you're actually good enough, it'll show. End of story.
Now lets play nice. We're all lawyers here. All equally evil, if we work together we can destroy more lives than we can if we go solo.
I prefer not to judge anyone by what uni they went to... but the way they say it. If some posh ****er (like one guy I met from UCL) comes up and says "why hello, I'm from UCL" in a very posh public school accent then when you say wherever you're from he gives you a kind of sneering "oh" (unless, of course, it's oxbridge because that's where he really wanted to go), there's definitely much more hatred for him than if some nice, genuine person from oxford comes round the corner.
Judging people based on a grouping seems ludicrous but I agree some will do it. I still maintain that some people are just bitter that they didn't get into oxbridge, and the fact that some people there are snobby ****ers and know how to love themselves (but it's like that everywhere!).
Basically, don't tar everyone with the same brush.
Judging people based on a grouping seems ludicrous but I agree some will do it. I still maintain that some people are just bitter that they didn't get into oxbridge, and the fact that some people there are snobby ****ers and know how to love themselves (but it's like that everywhere!).
Basically, don't tar everyone with the same brush.
I don't play nicely, only dirty.
Look up the definition of "lewis" on urbandictionary... had me in stitches for quite some time the other day... (the first one anyway, the other two are a little creepy).
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