Job prospects likely to improve for pharmacy?

OP

What in particular, did you dislike about the course? What happens to those who are unable to find a work placement in their fifth year - I would guess the chance of getting accepted the following year would be even lower or does it not work like that?

What pay are you looking at now, and what do you expect to earn in 2 years from now, and the. 10 years from now?

I'm not convinced that pharmacy offers good enough career development outside of hospital, and I think working in retail will be limited and boring anyway... What is it like?

Reply 3

Enibas92

I wanted to be a doctor, hence not getting in the first time fuelled my dislike for pharmacy. Hence, what I say may be biased as I warned you before. I think the course offers a lot of clinical knowledge which is wasted if you get a Pre-reg in community. Well those who did not find a chain community placement then had to find independent chemists who offered the training year. Bearing in mind that those are mostly after the money the pharmacy regulator pays them to train a trainee. 7 out of 10 times the learning there is atrocious, simply because many aren't really interested. They use trainees as dispensers, not providing opportunities to learn. On top of that trainees work ridiculous hours i.e. 9-7 five days a week, with the odd Saturday or Sunday thrown in. Statistics have shown that those pre-reg trainees don't do as well as those who trained at a hospital.
And yes if people do not manage to get a training place, they apply the following year. It did not come to that in my year, but it is highly expected in the following years, unless the regulator does something about it.
Regarding the pay, in hospital you start as a band 5 and once qualified become a band six. Then after undertaking post graduate diplomas or certificates you'll be able to apply for a band 7 position. Thereafter, one can rise to a band 8 however, that depends on ones expertise and the availability of such a post.
In community, as a trainee the pay is lower, especially in independent chemists, as they pay you the minimum the regulator has set (I think it is around £18440...that is what I have heard my friends say). However, payment progression is quicker once one has qualifies especially in big chains, in comparison to hospital.
To answer your question, 2 years form now a hospital pre reg would be completing their post grad studies and may be earing band 6/7 pay. Ten years from now, depending on how much the pre-reg wants to progress financially possibly a band 8.
Working in retail...have you ever worked in retail in general? If you have, then I can tell you its the same. patients aren't patients they are customers. That's where I learnt that the customer is always right and things have to be done to keep customer satisfaction up. I t is all about the numbers, targets, how many items have been dispensed, how many customers have been signed up for different services etc etc as all this translates into payment form the NHS. Hence why VOLUME is important, the more items, services the more profit for the company. Working as a pharmacist there is mind numbing as its like working on a conveyor belt. Fast food pharmacy. The order comes in you process it as quickly as possible as customers don't think its right to have to wait more than 7 minutes for their medicines and the you send the medicines out. Look up what ACTs (Accuracy Checking Technicians) are. Their role enables them to do things that pharmacists can do...without having gone to university.
So, in short, AVOID retail pharmacy, the potentially good salary (28,000 - 32,000 after 4 years of qualifying, which is not looking to be like this in future years) is not worth the long hours, customer abuse and head office target pressures.
E92

Reply 4

OP

Retail sounds like a complete waste of the knowledge gained on the course.

I think OT makes more sense then as the profession is set to grow in the future whereas pharmacy seems like it might be shrinking and getting more competitive. I think I would be suicidally bored if I had to work for years behind a pharmacy counter for 30k... Even for 45k I think i would struggle with the lack of CPD and it sounds very mundane and repetitive. For 60k I could do it but sounds like those sorts of salaries are much to be desired now by pharmacists.

Thanks for your information and good luck

Reply 5

First things first, when people say the grass always seems greener on the other side....its true. Everyone in the NHS is struggling, regardless of which profession you look at.

The role of a pharmacist is rapidly changing especially in hospital, but with that comes many opportunities. Pharmacist are now playing a bigger role in prescribing and running clinics. Maybe technology is coming, however the NHS does not have the resources to fund a lot of theses. In addition, the need for specialist pharmacists will not dry up.

But in my opinion, the future of pharmacy will be based in the primary sector working alongside GPs in clinics and seeing patients who are referred by the GPs - to reduce workload. This role is starting to be seen but its movement is slow (see the NHS Five Year Forward View). From this, there may be a reduction in hospital pharmacist in 10 years time but this is all theory!

Pre-registration places in hospitals are traditionally always hard to get (well done if you got one) and extremely competitive (this will not change!) The fight for a pharmacist job will increase - this is because there are too many pharmacy schools opening up. But that does not imply that you won't get a job, it just will be a little bit more competitive.

But if you are a hard-working and able student and pre-registration pharmacist, you don't need to worry about this. You will get a job.

I am currently working as a hospital pharmacist and I am doing a post-graduate diploma, this was offered to me by my hospital and does not cost any money for me to pay. The diploma is a necessity for hospital pharmacists to progress but the structured programme for this is advantageous and hospital provides opportunity to progress in many paths unlike community pharmacy. The work load can be stressful, but that will be no differ to any NHS healthcare profession..

If you want the well-paid life, don't do pharmacy or any other healthcare professional degree. Stress and workload come in every job, you need to be prepared to deal with them.

Original post by Enibas92

Hi,

AVOID this degree. Okay, this may be a bit biased as I never really liked this degree, but regarding job prospects it is not looking good. I have just graduated last year and managed to get myself a hospital pre-registration place (like doctors FY1). It was so competitive as many students in my year didn't manage to get one in hospital, neither in the big community chains like boots.
Knowing how competitive this field is at the moment I managed to get myself some work experience in the industry alongside working in a chemist part time. My experience in the chemist was very mundane, with very little clinical work.
If I had know I would have done an NHS funded course like OT or SLT. The pay rates are getting so low especially in community, long hours, weekend and for what? Bear in mind, pharmacist are the only or one of the very few HCP you can see without an appointment, hence why patients/customers are able to express all their frustration directly to your face on a constant daily basis...especially in community. Hospital pharmacy is a bit better, however, you would need certain post graduate qualifications to enable you to do more clinically and get paid better.
My advice:
think about what exactly you would like to do? Do you want to interact with patients? Improve their care and quality of life? Apply you clinical/scientific knowledge? If so, pharmacy is not the only way to do so and most certainly does not offer the best working conditions ( pay/ stress/ support/ development). There are other medical/health care professions that allow you to do so.

Hope it wasn't too pessimistic :wink:

E92

Original post by Guerlainette

Hi, I'm going to apply for uni next year with my a levels obtained. I want to work in health care of some kind, and currently thinking about pharmacy and occupational therapy. My mum works as a consultant doctor and managed to get her senior pharmacist friend to send me an email about the job... She advised me to avoid pharmacy and instead opt for OT because of the funded nhs course and better job prospects and salary and working conditions. She said pharmacy is getting very competitive due to uncapped student numbers and the introduction of cost saving technologies in hospitals mean pharmacists are having to be given work overspill from doctors and now the role is changing to a more makeshift patchwork mess of uncertainty

I am getting work exp lined up in a community pharmacy and hopefully can shadow my mums friends colleagues at the hospital but I am also trying to get OT work experience and it is harder to come by so don't know whether to avoid pharmacy alltogether if it is really as bleak as people in the field are saying...

Look forward to your responses

G

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 6

OP

Original post by petzneo

First things first, when people say the grass always seems greener on the other side....its true. Everyone in the NHS is struggling, regardless of which profession you look at.

The role of a pharmacist is rapidly changing especially in hospital, but with that comes many opportunities. Pharmacist are now playing a bigger role in prescribing and running clinics. Maybe technology is coming, however the NHS does not have the resources to fund a lot of theses. In addition, the need for specialist pharmacists will not dry up.

But in my opinion, the future of pharmacy will be based in the primary sector working alongside GPs in clinics and seeing patients who are referred by the GPs - to reduce workload. This role is starting to be seen but its movement is slow (see the NHS Five Year Forward View). From this, there may be a reduction in hospital pharmacist in 10 years time but this is all theory!

Pre-registration places in hospitals are traditionally always hard to get (well done if you got one) and extremely competitive (this will not change!) The fight for a pharmacist job will increase - this is because there are too many pharmacy schools opening up. But that does not imply that you won't get a job, it just will be a little bit more competitive.

But if you are a hard-working and able student and pre-registration pharmacist, you don't need to worry about this. You will get a job.

I am currently working as a hospital pharmacist and I am doing a post-graduate diploma, this was offered to me by my hospital and does not cost any money for me to pay. The diploma is a necessity for hospital pharmacists to progress but the structured programme for this is advantageous and hospital provides opportunity to progress in many paths unlike community pharmacy. The work load can be stressful, but that will be no differ to any NHS healthcare profession..

If you want the well-paid life, don't do pharmacy or any other healthcare professional degree. Stress and workload come in every job, you need to be prepared to deal with them.

Thank you, petzneo, for such an infoemative post. I wish you luck but i think i will heed the warnings and try to get trained as an OT.

Reply 7

mrlittlebigman

12

Original post by petzneo

First things first, when people say the grass always seems greener on the other side....its true. Everyone in the NHS is struggling, regardless of which profession you look at.

The role of a pharmacist is rapidly changing especially in hospital, but with that comes many opportunities. Pharmacist are now playing a bigger role in prescribing and running clinics. Maybe technology is coming, however the NHS does not have the resources to fund a lot of theses. In addition, the need for specialist pharmacists will not dry up.

But in my opinion, the future of pharmacy will be based in the primary sector working alongside GPs in clinics and seeing patients who are referred by the GPs - to reduce workload. This role is starting to be seen but its movement is slow (see the NHS Five Year Forward View). From this, there may be a reduction in hospital pharmacist in 10 years time but this is all theory!

Pre-registration places in hospitals are traditionally always hard to get (well done if you got one) and extremely competitive (this will not change!) The fight for a pharmacist job will increase - this is because there are too many pharmacy schools opening up. But that does not imply that you won't get a job, it just will be a little bit more competitive.

But if you are a hard-working and able student and pre-registration pharmacist, you don't need to worry about this. You will get a job.

I am currently working as a hospital pharmacist and I am doing a post-graduate diploma, this was offered to me by my hospital and does not cost any money for me to pay. The diploma is a necessity for hospital pharmacists to progress but the structured programme for this is advantageous and hospital provides opportunity to progress in many paths unlike community pharmacy. The work load can be stressful, but that will be no differ to any NHS healthcare profession..

If you want the well-paid life, don't do pharmacy or any other healthcare professional degree. Stress and workload come in every job, you need to be prepared to deal with them.

Do you do ANY community pharmacy? These guys are talking about that. There is progression in hospital with the Bands.
You say they will get a job if they are a good student. You know that isn't true. There are people with Firsts who can't find a pre-reg.

I really think you should make it clear that you are talking about hospital and seem to have little knowledge of community pharmacy in the REAL world? Quoting your mates isn't the same thing!!

Also, I had to pay several 1000 for my own diploma ! When you have been doing this for 24 years come back to me!!

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 8

Original post by mrlittlebigman

Do you do ANY community pharmacy? These guys are talking about that. There is progression in hospital with the Bands.
You say they will get a job if they are a good student. You know that isn't true. There are people with Firsts who can't find a pre-reg.

I really think you should make it clear that you are talking about hospital and seem to have little knowledge of community pharmacy in the REAL world? Quoting your mates isn't the same thing!!

Also, I had to pay several 1000 for my own diploma ! When you have been doing this for 24 years come back to me!!

1. From what I have gathered, she was talking about hospital pharmacy here.

2. You should know better that a first in your degree does not mean you are a great pharmacist - they used to tell us this all the time at university. I never specified to get a first but to be a good student in a general context.

3. The fact that I said "hospital" many times in my comments implies I was talking about hospital pharmacy, how is it not clear?

4. Finally, of course it all makes sense when you say how long you have been a pharmacist for. You clearly know the world of pharmacy has changed since 24 years ago and I am not reflecting or comparing on that at all. Ive been a pharmacist for 3 years but I see no point in looking back on what it was and will concentrate on the current point of pharmacy now. I refused to think about the "good old days" as those have gone and with the current way the NHS is going - they won't come back. My "mates" are community and hospital pharmacists (who locum) colleagues, i know them very well and I listen to their opinion about community pharmacy and especially the job role of a locum. Just because I don't work in community does not mean I cannot attempt to understand and be aware of their issues.

5. As a community pharmacist, of course you have to pay for your diploma - I never said otherwise. I clearly stated I was a hospital pharmacist.

All in all, stop being so argumentative about pharmacy. It's easy to do so...but it does no good for the profession at all. We will lose potentially amazing pharmacist because we send them away to do an "easier" course.

Original post by Guerlainette

Hi, I'm going to apply for uni next year with my a levels obtained. I want to work in health care of some kind, and currently thinking about pharmacy and occupational therapy. My mum works as a consultant doctor and managed to get her senior pharmacist friend to send me an email about the job... She advised me to avoid pharmacy and instead opt for OT because of the funded nhs course and better job prospects and salary and working conditions. She said pharmacy is getting very competitive due to uncapped student numbers and the introduction of cost saving technologies in hospitals mean pharmacists are having to be given work overspill from doctors and now the role is changing to a more makeshift patchwork mess of uncertainty

I am getting work exp lined up in a community pharmacy and hopefully can shadow my mums friends colleagues at the hospital but I am also trying to get OT work experience and it is harder to come by so don't know whether to avoid pharmacy alltogether if it is really as bleak as people in the field are saying...

Look forward to your responses

G

Reply 9

mrlittlebigman

12

So basically everything you know about community pharmacy is heresay?!

Stick to talking about hospital!
I have friends who are hospital pharmacists and I listen to them. But I don't put it all on here because I don't experience it!. You pontificate about community pharmacy as though you do a 40 hr week in it like I do.
It's a different world! (And you know it!)

I'm not being argumentative. I'm merely stating the truth. Some people don't like it! That doesn't change it. I think far more pharmacists would agree with me, than with you, and certainly the more experienced ones will.

I wish you all the best in your HOSPITAL career, but suggest when you talk about community, you make it clear that it's not your actual job. Also, judging by your other posts, you love pharmacy so much, you are escaping to fast track Medicine !

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 10

This is the last I will say on this post as this thread is changing its focus. I will not reply to any further posts unless you wish to PM me.

Just because I have not experienced it does not imply that I cannot mention information directly from people who have experienced it, but where in my post have I used "heresay"?? Of course, it would be ideal if I had that information on community pharmacy through experience but I do not.

My points are in majority about hospital pharmacy (and clearly mentioned that I am a hospital pharmacist in my post), the point about the movement of pharmacists from secondary care (i.e. hospital pharmacists) to primary care, is about hospital pharmacists. I agree that my time in community is limited but I still believe that there are so many good aspects to community pharmacy, especially if you try to progress e.g. independant prescribing and advanced services. And if community pharmacy is that bad, then all I can say is that you have many other choices e.g. hospital pharmacy, academia, industry, working in the CQC and CCGs and using your degree for non-pharmacy purposes.

To pre-empt, the reason I do not work in community pharmacy is because I hate to be couped up in a room, I like being clinically challenged in my everyday hospital practice and I like working in hospital as part of a huge team of pharmacists as I feel more supported. I also am not interested in the business aspect of the career.

All in all, I have every right if I believe my information to be appropriate to relay to other potential pharmacists and you have every right to critic it and it will remain that way...that is the beauty of TSR and free speech.

Secondly, thanks for looking up my old posts- I am not ashamed to say that my heart is fully not in pharmacy - that does not imply that I do not respect and fight for the profession or its role in the NHS. Yes, I applied once for graduate entry medicine after my pre-reg. Yes, it is something I am still considering as its always been on the back of my mind but for now, I am focusing on my clinical diploma.

Good luck to you on your continuing career and I hope you become a bit more positive in your everyday practice. Life is about embracing new ideas and not clinging onto the old.

Original post by mrlittlebigman

So basically everything you know about community pharmacy is heresay?!

Stick to talking about hospital!
I have friends who are hospital pharmacists and I listen to them. But I don't put it all on here because I don't experience it!. You pontificate about community pharmacy as though you do a 40 hr week in it like I do.
It's a different world! (And you know it!)

I'm not being argumentative. I'm merely stating the truth. Some people don't like it! That doesn't change it. I think far more pharmacists would agree with me, than with you, and certainly the more experienced ones will.

I wish you all the best in your HOSPITAL career, but suggest when you talk about community, you make it clear that it's not your actual job. Also, judging by your other posts, you love pharmacy so much, you are escaping to fast track Medicine !

Original post by petzneo

I am currently working as a hospital pharmacist and I am doing a post-graduate diploma, this was offered to me by my hospital and does not cost any money for me to pay. The diploma is a necessity for hospital pharmacists to progress but the structured programme for this is advantageous and hospital provides opportunity to progress in many paths unlike community pharmacy. The work load can be stressful, but that will be no differ to any NHS healthcare profession..

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 11

username1177050

20

my dad did a pharmacy degree at aston back in the 80's and it was reasonably competitive then. however he managed to get his pre reg place through my aunt whose friend at the time was finishing and so there was a space available

Reply 12

mrlittlebigman

12

Original post by petzneo

This is the last I will say on this post as this thread is changing its focus. I will not reply to any further posts unless you wish to PM me.

Just because I have not experienced it does not imply that I cannot mention information directly from people who have experienced it, but where in my post have I used "heresay"?? Of course, it would be ideal if I had that information on community pharmacy through experience but I do not.

My points are in majority about hospital pharmacy (and clearly mentioned that I am a hospital pharmacist in my post), the point about the movement of pharmacists from secondary care (i.e. hospital pharmacists) to primary care, is about hospital pharmacists. I agree that my time in community is limited but I still believe that there are so many good aspects to community pharmacy, especially if you try to progress e.g. independant prescribing and advanced services. And if community pharmacy is that bad, then all I can say is that you have many other choices e.g. hospital pharmacy, academia, industry, working in the CQC and CCGs and using your degree for non-pharmacy purposes.

To pre-empt, the reason I do not work in community pharmacy is because I hate to be couped up in a room, I like being clinically challenged in my everyday hospital practice and I like working in hospital as part of a huge team of pharmacists as I feel more supported. I also am not interested in the business aspect of the career.

All in all, I have every right if I believe my information to be appropriate to relay to other potential pharmacists and you have every right to critic it and it will remain that way...that is the beauty of TSR and free speech.

Secondly, thanks for looking up my old posts- I am not ashamed to say that my heart is fully not in pharmacy - that does not imply that I do not respect and fight for the profession or its role in the NHS. Yes, I applied once for graduate entry medicine after my pre-reg. Yes, it is something I am still considering as its always been on the back of my mind but for now, I am focusing on my clinical diploma.

Good luck to you on your continuing career and I hope you become a bit more positive in your everyday practice. Life is about embracing new ideas and not clinging onto the old.

I stand by my earlier post, you know sod all about community pharmacy, and you love hospital pharmacy, so much you are going to re-train as a Dr! I will take no advice from you, dear!

Reply 13

OP

I would obviously prefer to work in a hospital if I were to qualify as a pharmacist, as the setting and role would match the course much more appropriately. I think there is more room for professional advancement and career development - i.e. petzneo is or was looking at MPharm grad-entry medicine which is probably easier from a hospital background? Furthermore, community pharmacy seems like it is just glorified retail, and the community treat pharmacists very poorly from what a lot of people have been saying on forums. Personally, I think this career is too liable to collapse within my working lifespan, and for that reason I couldn't justify the expense and time on an MPharm degree course.

Thanks for the responses.

Reply 14

Dalightfool

9

Don't do Pharmacy, there is neither love nor money waiting for you as a graduate of pharmacy. Job competitiveness will sky-rocket over the next 5 years, making it impossible to find a job as a pharmacist near your home - even if they do bring in a cap immediately, the damage has been done. Wages are going down in retail and the NHS is under tremendous pressure so don't expect to work hard and get lucky with a hospital placement - people are holding on to their jobs more tightly than ever, and hospitals are having to work around IMMENSE government funding cuts.

AVOID Pharmacy, it is a very high risk career choice as it stands, let alone in 10, 15, 20 years from now.

Reply 15

cathrg26

16

wouldn't count on it. I know a guy who did it at UCL, couldn't get a job or any work experience. He ended up doing a masters at Oxford and still nothing, staying at uni and is now just an academic

Reply 16

Original post by Guerlainette

I would obviously prefer to work in a hospital if I were to qualify as a pharmacist, as the setting and role would match the course much more appropriately. I think there is more room for professional advancement and career development - i.e. petzneo is or was looking at MPharm grad-entry medicine which is probably easier from a hospital background? Furthermore, community pharmacy seems like it is just glorified retail, and the community treat pharmacists very poorly from what a lot of people have been saying on forums. Personally, I think this career is too liable to collapse within my working lifespan, and for that reason I couldn't justify the expense and time on an MPharm degree course.

Thanks for the responses.

No worries. Good luck and I hope you find the right career path for you.

Reply 17

manupalace

11

Original post by petzneo

This is the last I will say on this post as this thread is changing its focus. I will not reply to any further posts unless you wish to PM me.

Just because I have not experienced it does not imply that I cannot mention information directly from people who have experienced it, but where in my post have I used "heresay"?? Of course, it would be ideal if I had that information on community pharmacy through experience but I do not.

My points are in majority about hospital pharmacy (and clearly mentioned that I am a hospital pharmacist in my post), the point about the movement of pharmacists from secondary care (i.e. hospital pharmacists) to primary care, is about hospital pharmacists. I agree that my time in community is limited but I still believe that there are so many good aspects to community pharmacy, especially if you try to progress e.g. independant prescribing and advanced services. And if community pharmacy is that bad, then all I can say is that you have many other choices e.g. hospital pharmacy, academia, industry, working in the CQC and CCGs and using your degree for non-pharmacy purposes.

To pre-empt, the reason I do not work in community pharmacy is because I hate to be couped up in a room, I like being clinically challenged in my everyday hospital practice and I like working in hospital as part of a huge team of pharmacists as I feel more supported. I also am not interested in the business aspect of the career.

All in all, I have every right if I believe my information to be appropriate to relay to other potential pharmacists and you have every right to critic it and it will remain that way...that is the beauty of TSR and free speech.

Secondly, thanks for looking up my old posts- I am not ashamed to say that my heart is fully not in pharmacy - that does not imply that I do not respect and fight for the profession or its role in the NHS. Yes, I applied once for graduate entry medicine after my pre-reg. Yes, it is something I am still considering as its always been on the back of my mind but for now, I am focusing on my clinical diploma.

Good luck to you on your continuing career and I hope you become a bit more positive in your everyday practice. Life is about embracing new ideas and not clinging onto the old.

Great response agree with everything you said. Hope your diploma is going well.

I agree with your opinion regarding prospects with hospital pharmacy. You get out what you put in, things are becoming more competitive but people who are good students, and proactive gaining experience and making the most of experiences their university offers them invariably succeed in getting pre-reg and the same goes for getting jobs in hospital post-qualification.

I am one of those pharmacists making the switch to medicine, which would suggest I wouldn't recommend it. I would, recommend it. Its is a rewarding career if you find a role that fits you well. Pharmacists can play amazing roles in communities, in partnership with GPs and other HCPs. Hospital pharmacists can play integral and influential roles in patient care. I would however not (currently) recommend it as a career for people who want to but are unable to do medicine and want a replica career. My initial expectations when I applied were unrealistic and I very quickly realised I would feel constantly frustrated by the limitations of my role. There is a lot of scope for the development of the role of pharmacists in community, hospital and primary care. I've often felt that the knowledge and skills of pharmacists in hospital as well as in the community are wasted. To anyone considering pharmacy I would recommend trying to get some work experience, before starting the course. This way your expectations are more likely to match the reality.

Do not go into pharmacy for the money, pay rates are falling as the market becomes saturated (I say that as someone who works as a locum), and though pay progression can be relatively fast in hospital NHS salaries don't reach heady heights.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 18