Feminism Challange-Guys: Why are you not feminists?
Do not reference feminists because it's irrelevant.
Let's say for the sake of this thread that the doctrine of feminism is about establishing equal social, economic, cultural and personal rights for both men and women.
This means men and women should be paid for the same job for example.
Why exactly are you against this concept? I challenge you to respond without using "feminists" in your argument because ideologies can get warped by people as we've seen throughout humankind.
I'm playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't identify as a feminist but I want to see the reasons guys in particular give for not identifying as one.
Let's say for the sake of this thread that the doctrine of feminism is about establishing equal social, economic, cultural and personal rights for both men and women.
This means men and women should be paid for the same job for example.
Why exactly are you against this concept? I challenge you to respond without using "feminists" in your argument because ideologies can get warped by people as we've seen throughout humankind.
I'm playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't identify as a feminist but I want to see the reasons guys in particular give for not identifying as one.
Scroll to see replies
Original post by TheTruthTeller
Do not reference feminists because it's irrelevant.
Let's say for the sake of this thread that the doctrine of feminism is about establishing equal social, economic, cultural and personal rights for both men and women.
This means men and women should be paid for the same job for example.
Why exactly are you against this concept? I challenge you to respond without using "feminists" in your argument because ideologies can get warped by people as we've seen throughout humankind.
I'm playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't identify as a feminist but I want to see the reasons guys in particular give for not identifying as one.
Let's say for the sake of this thread that the doctrine of feminism is about establishing equal social, economic, cultural and personal rights for both men and women.
This means men and women should be paid for the same job for example.
Why exactly are you against this concept? I challenge you to respond without using "feminists" in your argument because ideologies can get warped by people as we've seen throughout humankind.
I'm playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't identify as a feminist but I want to see the reasons guys in particular give for not identifying as one.
This is the most invalid argument you could have used; there are justified reasons for why men get paid more in certain roles in professions, and even then it doesn't happen often.
Original post by Mayhem™
This is the most invalid argument you could have used; there are justified reasons for why men get paid more in certain roles in professions, and even then it doesn't happen often.
Let's assume in this case they have the same output ok? No more specific knit-picking at the scenario, just assume for the sake of the argument.
I have two sides to this. I believe that women shouldn't get equality unless they do the same job, the same hours and the same treatment regarding the job. Women in Wimbledon want the same amount of prize money as men but they have less sets therefore in that regard i am not feminist.
I do however believe that if a woman beats a man then she should get the same treatment as men when being charged yet this is never the case. He may fight back and then she becomes the victim. In this sense i am a feminist.
A train will hit a man and a woman. Both same age, same jobs and of same social class. You can only save one of them - who would it be? I asked this in a group chat on fb and bc of social convention they all chose the woman. Who would you pick?
Men and equal will never be equal in social convention. I am saying this as fact of politics and civil and criminal law. As a person aside of politics i hope that both men and women will be seen as equal sexes socially, professionally and legally.
I do however believe that if a woman beats a man then she should get the same treatment as men when being charged yet this is never the case. He may fight back and then she becomes the victim. In this sense i am a feminist.
A train will hit a man and a woman. Both same age, same jobs and of same social class. You can only save one of them - who would it be? I asked this in a group chat on fb and bc of social convention they all chose the woman. Who would you pick?
Men and equal will never be equal in social convention. I am saying this as fact of politics and civil and criminal law. As a person aside of politics i hope that both men and women will be seen as equal sexes socially, professionally and legally.
No real replies yet.
The wage gap is a myth. Get that into your head - all of you. There is no such thing as men and women being paid different amounts for the same job in the United Kingdom it does NOT happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNHMoWBy2A
You have had real replies - you just don't like the answer. @Mayhem™ gave a perfectly valid reason against a flawed argument/statement in the OP but you just want to bury your head in the sand against anyone who tells you that you're wrong because muh patriarchy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNHMoWBy2A
Original post by TheTruthTeller
No real replies yet.
You have had real replies - you just don't like the answer. @Mayhem™ gave a perfectly valid reason against a flawed argument/statement in the OP but you just want to bury your head in the sand against anyone who tells you that you're wrong because muh patriarchy.
(edited 8 years ago)
Im waiting for the Diplomat....
I don't believe men and woman should be paid for the same job because I believe workers of all descriptions should own the means of production.
On a serious note, I would consider myself feminist if feminism was restricted to 1st and 2nd wave feminism; both of which I believe to be amongst some of the most important social movements. However, 3rd wave feminism honestly just seems to be an intellectually bankrupt mess of contradictions.
Sorry.
On a serious note, I would consider myself feminist if feminism was restricted to 1st and 2nd wave feminism; both of which I believe to be amongst some of the most important social movements. However, 3rd wave feminism honestly just seems to be an intellectually bankrupt mess of contradictions.
Sorry.
First of all men and women are different. This will never change
Secondly. Itd be cool if feminism was about equality but nah lol.
My gf hates feminism cus its killed chivalry and men cant do nice things for women anymore.
Secondly. Itd be cool if feminism was about equality but nah lol.
My gf hates feminism cus its killed chivalry and men cant do nice things for women anymore.
Original post by Mr.ItsJustMe
I have two sides to this. I believe that women shouldn't get equality unless they do the same job, the same hours and the same treatment regarding the job. Women in Wimbledon want the same amount of prize money as men but they have less sets therefore in that regard i am not feminist.
I do however believe that if a woman beats a man then she should get the same treatment as men when being charged yet this is never the case. He may fight back and then she becomes the victim. In this sense i am a feminist.
A train will hit a man and a woman. Both same age, same jobs and of same social class. You can only save one of them - who would it be? I asked this in a group chat on fb and bc of social convention they all chose the woman. Who would you pick?
Men and equal will never be equal in social convention. I am saying this as fact of politics and civil and criminal law. As a person aside of politics i hope that both men and women will be seen as equal sexes socially, professionally and legally.
I do however believe that if a woman beats a man then she should get the same treatment as men when being charged yet this is never the case. He may fight back and then she becomes the victim. In this sense i am a feminist.
A train will hit a man and a woman. Both same age, same jobs and of same social class. You can only save one of them - who would it be? I asked this in a group chat on fb and bc of social convention they all chose the woman. Who would you pick?
Men and equal will never be equal in social convention. I am saying this as fact of politics and civil and criminal law. As a person aside of politics i hope that both men and women will be seen as equal sexes socially, professionally and legally.
This is all about social conventions. E.G. Society programming us to save the woman. One can argue this is the fault of males for painting women out to be "too weak" and "inferior" physically and emotionally to men, which is why we have male terms like "like a girl". You still have not actually responded to my initial challange which is concerning feminism as an ideology. If for the sake of the argument accept the definition I've provided then you are indeed a feminist. Attacking social norms is valid and one can argue the whole notion of feminism is necessary as the movement aims to change these social norms, whether aimed at men or women.
Original post by Flibib
I don't believe men and woman should be paid for the same job because I believe workers of all descriptions should own the means of production.
On a serious note, I would consider myself feminist if feminism was restricted to 1st and 2nd wave feminism; both of which I believe to be amongst some of the most important social movements. However, 3rd wave feminism honestly just seems to be an intellectually bankrupt mess of contradictions.
Sorry.
On a serious note, I would consider myself feminist if feminism was restricted to 1st and 2nd wave feminism; both of which I believe to be amongst some of the most important social movements. However, 3rd wave feminism honestly just seems to be an intellectually bankrupt mess of contradictions.
Sorry.
By the definition I have provided above- you would accept yourself as a feminist if that was the official definiton?
Original post by ChickenMadness
First of all men and women are different. This will never change
Secondly. Itd be cool if feminism was about equality but nah lol.
My gf hates feminism cus its killed chivalry and men cant do nice things for women anymore.
Secondly. Itd be cool if feminism was about equality but nah lol.
My gf hates feminism cus its killed chivalry and men cant do nice things for women anymore.
Black and white people are different this will never change. Jews and Muslims are different this will never change.Old and Young people are different this will never change.
K mate so blacks and whites should obviously have different rules because they're different right? Don't know where i've seen this in history before brah. Terrible argument... Dissapointed in u
Original post by Chaz W
The wage gap is a myth. Get that into your head - all of you. There is no such thing as men and women being paid different amounts for the same job in the United Kingdom it does NOT happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNHMoWBy2A
You have had real replies - you just don't like the answer. @Mayhem™ gave a perfectly valid reason against a flawed argument/statement in the OP but you just want to bury your head in the sand against anyone who tells you that you're wrong because muh patriarchy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNHMoWBy2A
You have had real replies - you just don't like the answer. @Mayhem™ gave a perfectly valid reason against a flawed argument/statement in the OP but you just want to bury your head in the sand against anyone who tells you that you're wrong because muh patriarchy.
He did not give me a reason. I said let's assume they produce the same output etc. Stop knit-picking the tiny details. This is about the doctrine of feminism and what it stands for. The definition above is broadly what it means, so taking that into accordance and without referencing feminists, why would you not identify with it?
Wow.. Ashamed of you guys, thought you actually had stronger arguments for not being a feminist and i'm only playing devil's advocate lol...
Original post by TheTruthTeller
By the definition I have provided above- you would accept yourself as a feminist if that was the official definiton?
Well, I've already said I disagreed with the example you provide because one of my strongest beliefs is that all workers should be emancipated from the wage/labour structure.
Given the definition you've provided, if the question is 'do you agree with that? Would you consider yourself feminist on that basis?' I'd shrug and say, "Yeah, sure, why not?" If the question was "If this was the only label you could give yourself, would you do it?" I'd say "nah, nah"
Why? Well, if feminism is a complete success and women still get these identical rights as men, they will still be oppressed, as men (as all workers) are. I'm sympathetic toward the goals of feminism, of course, but ultimately I think socialism serves truly serves those goals and addresses causes and not symptoms.
Original post by TheTruthTeller
Black and white people are different this will never change. Jews and Muslims are different this will never change.Old and Young people are different this will never change.
K mate so blacks and whites should obviously have different rules because they're different right? Don't know where i've seen this in history before brah. Terrible argument... Dissapointed in u
K mate so blacks and whites should obviously have different rules because they're different right? Don't know where i've seen this in history before brah. Terrible argument... Dissapointed in u
Nah black and white people arent different. I dont cou t skin colour as different lol.
I mean genetalia and how men are bigger n stronger etc. Women can have babies. Men cant
So ofcourse. Theres never going to be true equality. If a man has to help a weaker woman in a manual labour job then he should be paid more for that job. And employers shouldnt be discriminated against for picking a 6ft1 muscular man over a 4ft8 woman to lift heavy boxes all day.
Original post by ChickenMadness
Nah black and white people arent different. I dont cou t skin colour as different lol.
I mean genetalia and how men are bigger n stronger etc. Women can have babies. Men cant
So ofcourse. Theres never going to be true equality. If a man has to help a weaker woman in a manual labour job then he should be paid more for that job. And employers shouldnt be discriminated against for picking a 6ft1 muscular man over a 4ft8 woman to lift heavy boxes all day.
I mean genetalia and how men are bigger n stronger etc. Women can have babies. Men cant
So ofcourse. Theres never going to be true equality. If a man has to help a weaker woman in a manual labour job then he should be paid more for that job. And employers shouldnt be discriminated against for picking a 6ft1 muscular man over a 4ft8 woman to lift heavy boxes all day.
Oh so you only see gender as a difference? Get a grip brah your argument is weak af. Black people can't be white and white people can't be black naturally anyway in the same sence men and women can't naturally be eachother. So in that respect they are different. If you read the response I gave above it's assumming the man and woman have the same OUTPUT levels. So if both the man and woman carried the same amount of boxes in a day do you think they should be paid the same. Also the final part is not discrimination based on gender, it's technically whose more fitted for the job. Using my definition in my OP the employer has a right to pick the man on the basis he is more efficient in the workfore, just like if theres a 6ft1 hench woman vs a 5ft 1 skinny man the woman should be picked on the basis of her effiency and suitability for the job. Brah reevalulate ur argument. Accept your getting merkd and I'm only playing devil's advocate :P
Original post by TheTruthTeller
He did not give me a reason. I said let's assume they produce the same output etc. Stop knit-picking the tiny details. This is about the doctrine of feminism and what it stands for. The definition above is broadly what it means, so taking that into accordance and without referencing feminists, why would you not identify with it?
I wouldn't exactly call the supposed wage gap a nit pick because every feminist ever seems to bring it up. But anyway, I see you're after why people are reluctant to associate with feminism rather than the arguments themselves.
I don't call myself a feminist because everyone that calls themselves a feminist in 2015 that I've encountered are whiny, self-entitled and lack the capacity to argue with logic and evidence which supports their claims. And yes, many females are using the veil of equal rights to disguise their hatred for men.
@Illiberal Liberal what do you think of my answers and the thread? Seems like men don't really have a reason for not being feminists other than social stigma :O
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