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AQA A2 English Literature 2016 - Elements of the Gothic (LITB3) - OFFICIAL THREAD

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Reply 200
Can anyone explain the difference between atheism and blasphemy in Doctor Faustus? Like I know the definitions but, how would you go about arguing that the play is about atheism rather than about blaspheme but belief in God? I'm really confused
aqa have put last years paper up btw
For everyone studying Dr Faustus, do you think that Marlowe is commending or condemning religion and why? I'd like to see what other people think about this.
An interesting question.. He is certainly condemning Catholicism, think Pope scene and religious context. Also, many of the 'uneducated people' of society were regularly represented on Elizabethan stages as retaining many of the traditional Catholic views.

I suppose he condemns Protestantism in Faustus' continual refusal to repent. This failure to turn to God, even when facing eternal hell, surely can't be seen as anything but a condemnation of society's attitude towards religion?

What do you think?
Original post by Daniel5145

I suppose he condemns Protestantism in Faustus' continual refusal to repent.


But Faustus is ultimately punished for this? Isn't Marlowe showing that religion wins and is the stronger force against ill-wreckenings?

(Personally, I disagree, but I will put my view forward after you answer)
Original post by kingaaran
But Faustus is ultimately punished for this? Isn't Marlowe showing that religion wins and is the stronger force against ill-wreckenings?

(Personally, I disagree, but I will put my view forward after you answer)


He may be COMMENDING religion in terms of the 'strength' of its force, yes. But if you adopt the view that Faustus is representative of the 'everyman', and society is therefore continually failing to seek out God, Marlowe provides a pretty damning view of the contemporary attitudes towards religion. Although it may be an unrestrainable force, that doesn't effect Marlowe's comment on its negative social impact.
Original post by Daniel5145
He may be COMMENDING religion in terms of the 'strength' of its force, yes. But if you adopt the view that Faustus is representative of the 'everyman', and society is therefore continually failing to seek out God, Marlowe provides a pretty damning view of the contemporary attitudes towards religion. Although it may be an unrestrainable force, that doesn't effect Marlowe's comment on its negative social impact.


I like your argument :wink:

It is very similar to my own.

I think the whole presentation of Faustus' damnation at the end is so melodramatic and seems to come with an element of irony and mockery towards religion. They punish him for what - attempting to quench his Renaissance desires?

What would you say against the argument that Marlowe shows Faustus get rightly punished because Faustus does commit the ultimate sins of pride and not accepting repentance?
Oo, tough one.

I guess you can argue that his punishment is undeserved in the way he has been manipulated by Meph. Faustus starts out with impressive aims, for example, wanting to make Germany secure: "wall all Germany with brass". He is unable to achieve such aims through Meph's continual advice to pursue less meaningful acts. In this way, he has been 'tricked' out of the power he had been promised. How can he repent if he has not truly sinned? Granted, Meph does warn him of the "hell" he faces.

It is an interesting point you raise: "They punish him for what - attempting to quench his Renaissance desires?"

I had not thought of it in that way. Perhaps he can be seen as a brave and enviable man, who simply has an insatiable desire for knowledge. How can you punish a man for simply trying to expand his grasps on the human limits? A brilliant point for any transgression essays, with plenty of counter-arguments too.
Original post by Daniel5145
Oo, tough one.

I guess you can argue that his punishment is undeserved in the way he has been manipulated by Meph. Faustus starts out with impressive aims, for example, wanting to make Germany secure: "wall all Germany with brass". He is unable to achieve such aims through Meph's continual advice to pursue less meaningful acts. In this way, he has been 'tricked' out of the power he had been promised. How can he repent if he has not truly sinned? Granted, Meph does warn him of the "hell" he faces.

It is an interesting point you raise: "They punish him for what - attempting to quench his Renaissance desires?"

I had not thought of it in that way. Perhaps he can be seen as a brave and enviable man, who simply has an insatiable desire for knowledge. How can you punish a man for simply trying to expand his grasps on the human limits? A brilliant point for any transgression essays, with plenty of counter-arguments too.


I agree! I think Marlowe shows his audiences the fear incarcerated within religion and the fear with which it gains powers with. It doesn't become a chosen pathway, but one that you cannot escape. And, as we see through Faustus' psychological deterioration, it can lead to the destruction of a man.

The entire religious conflict within the play mirrors the conflict between the Medieval and Renaissance periods and allows Marlowe to highlight how they were antagonists of each other. Marlowe shows the Renaissance to be a period of enlightenment, freedom and individuality, but the Medieval period (and the stoic, orthodox religious views that came with it) to be entrapping and drear.
Reply 209
Anyone got any ideas or thoughts on Dr Faustus' greatest sin being his misuse of his supernatural powers? I personally think his greatest sin could be his pride as without it, he could have repented and not have been damned. Thanks ! x
Original post by madi22
Anyone got any ideas or thoughts on Dr Faustus' greatest sin being his misuse of his supernatural powers? I personally think his greatest sin could be his pride as without it, he could have repented and not have been damned. Thanks ! x


I agree with that.

Catholics would argue that it is rejection and undermining of the sacrilegious figure of the Pope, Protestants would disagree and applaud this.

But then I also disagree with the statement in its entirety for two reasons: does Faustus actually misuse his supernatural powers? As a Renaissance man, we see him achieve a lot with his powers and so to call it a misuse of his powers seems too extreme (perhaps a reflection of religious attitudes to small strays away from it). Secondly, doesn't a sin have to be an active transgression against religious ideals - yet can we argue that Faustus is actually tricked and tormented into his actions?
Original post by LostInPanda
Studying Bloody Chamber, Dr Faustus and Frankenstein and my mock was this morning... it was on the 2013 June paper and I think it went okay?

Does anyone know the Horrible Histories William Shakespeare song? I learned quotes by writing a parody of it (I tought it would be funny because of the whole Marlowe/Shakespeare thing). If anyone else learns via songs and music, let me know and I'll post the lyrics?

I'm struggling with the critical response... do we have to learn specific critics viewpoints, or is the old "it could also be argued that..." without names fine too?


Exactly how I learn too! please post!
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Lizzie_eizzil
Exactly how I learn too! please post!


I mean... they're very very general quotes, but okie dokie! You basically have to repeat the verse 3 times cuz I couldn't fit in enough quotes for each text without doing that. I'll include the layout. in case you want to sing it with the original (HH William Shakespeare Song)

DOCTOR FAUSTUS - verse 1
My name is Christopher Marlowe
I wrote Doctor Faustus you know
and now you have to study my play

He told us to "despair in God"
wished that "midnight never come"
and now he's "glutted with conceit of this"

"Oh this feeds my soul"
"fear not but be resolute"
"But Faustus shall never repent"
yeah that's true.

"Tell me who made the world"
"The devil I choke thee"
"Faustus and Mephi beat friars" - my name for Mephistopheles
They called me Athiest
"No end is limited to damned souls"
But nobody remembers my name.

FRANKENSTIEN - verse 1 again
My name is Mary Shelly
and I wrote Frankenstein you see,
that's the scientist, not the monster.

There's a mix of sex and fear to read:
"they became livid with the hue of death"
"I thought... I held the corpse of my dead mother in my arms."

He "heard a shrill and dreadful scream"
he was a "wreck of a human being"
his "life appeared to him as a dream"
yeah, this books sad.

He's the "natural lord and king"
"parents...possessed the...spirit of kindness"
there's a "sublime and magnificent scene"
They called Victor insane
the "light became oppressive" while also causing pleasure,
the monster and the man are the same.

THE BLOODY CHAMBER - verse 2 and bridge
The Bloody Chamber is real dark:
"Ceased to be a child in becoming his wife"
her "potentiality for corruption" is strong.

"My father lost me to the Beast at cards"
"His beauty, his girld child, his pet"
"Eyes green as apples... as dead sea fruit."

"Oh this clockwork twin of mine"
"the rattle of rain on the roof"
"the odour of a glowing, velvet, monstrous flower"

"She was an imperfect wolf"
"Erl-King will do you... harm"
"The forest assassins," "the countess wants fresh meat"
"miss lamb... sacrificial," "child of his desire"
"keeps up appearances in bed"

"The woods enclose," there was "nobody but me""
"as Goblin or Enchanted fruit," "thrive on dead things"
"withered blackberries," and a "subtle labyrinth"
"there are some eyes can eat you"

"tears... like stuck pearls, her **** a split fig" - begins with a C

SUMMARY - last chorus
Frankenstein's transgression
against religion and gender norms
Faustus makes a stupid deal and then mocks everyone

Bloody Chamber
sex, animals, identity,
but you don't need every story


As far as parody songs go, it's not great, but for revision its really helpful! Feel free to add and change quotes if you feel like others are more helpful for you.
Original post by kingaaran
I agree with that.

Catholics would argue that it is rejection and undermining of the sacrilegious figure of the Pope, Protestants would disagree and applaud this.

But then I also disagree with the statement in its entirety for two reasons: does Faustus actually misuse his supernatural powers? As a Renaissance man, we see him achieve a lot with his powers and so to call it a misuse of his powers seems too extreme (perhaps a reflection of religious attitudes to small strays away from it). Secondly, doesn't a sin have to be an active transgression against religious ideals - yet can we argue that Faustus is actually tricked and tormented into his actions?


Though I disagree that Faustus doesn't misuse his powers - does he do anything incredible or particularly worthwhile with them? - I like the idea that he's tricked into his contract. I just wonder how far you could argue it; when does Mephistopheles' influence end Faustus' own greed and ambition begin?
Reply 214
Original post by kingaaran
I agree with that.

Catholics would argue that it is rejection and undermining of the sacrilegious figure of the Pope, Protestants would disagree and applaud this.

But then I also disagree with the statement in its entirety for two reasons: does Faustus actually misuse his supernatural powers? As a Renaissance man, we see him achieve a lot with his powers and so to call it a misuse of his powers seems too extreme (perhaps a reflection of religious attitudes to small strays away from it). Secondly, doesn't a sin have to be an active transgression against religious ideals - yet can we argue that Faustus is actually tricked and tormented into his actions?


I would say that Faustus is tricked, but only to a certain extent as engaging in sex with the devil (spirit of Helen of Troy) which he does on his own accord for satisfaction, can be read as a misuse of his powers. Also does anyone else agree that this moment is ironic as Faustus says "make me immortal with a kiss" therefore seeking transcendence through sex, but he's giving up immortality with god for it?
Reply 215
Original post by LostInPanda
Though I disagree that Faustus doesn't misuse his powers - does he do anything incredible or particularly worthwhile with them? - I like the idea that he's tricked into his contract. I just wonder how far you could argue it; when does Mephistopheles' influence end Faustus' own greed and ambition begin?


I think from Chorus 2, Faustus has his own "chariot burning bright" and he is after everything he desires, which includes the arguable misuse of his powers when he disrespects the Pope and mocks the Knight and Horse-courser. However, there are obviously multiple moments in the play when Faustus wants to repent which you could use as contradictory arguments.
Reply 216
Original post by kingaaran
I agree with that.

Catholics would argue that it is rejection and undermining of the sacrilegious figure of the Pope, Protestants would disagree and applaud this.

But then I also disagree with the statement in its entirety for two reasons: does Faustus actually misuse his supernatural powers? As a Renaissance man, we see him achieve a lot with his powers and so to call it a misuse of his powers seems too extreme (perhaps a reflection of religious attitudes to small strays away from it). Secondly, doesn't a sin have to be an active transgression against religious ideals - yet can we argue that Faustus is actually tricked and tormented into his actions?


You know when you say he achieved a lot with his powers, what does he actually achieve?
Original post by AqsaMx
You know when you say he achieved a lot with his powers, what does he actually achieve?


Original post by LostInPanda
Though I disagree that Faustus doesn't misuse his powers - does he do anything incredible or particularly worthwhile with them? - I like the idea that he's tricked into his contract. I just wonder how far you could argue it; when does Mephistopheles' influence end Faustus' own greed and ambition begin?


He's a man of the Renaissance. He explores the world, learns about the stars, sees 'buildings fair and gorgeous to the eye', 'roads paved with the finest brick' and tastes 'delicate fruits'. The Renaissance focused on knowledge, aesthetics and architecture and I think Faustus does certainly become admirable in his pursuing and quenching of his Renaissance desires.

We might think there is nothing important in seeing buildings or the indian ocean or the stars, but by the humanist ideology of the Renaissance, it truly would have been something you would praised for doing.

I think we cannot say the Faustus towards the end of the play is the Faustus we started with. The Faustus towards the end is tormented by fear, as shown by the psychological nature of the last scene (I don't view it as literal at all). Faustus loses his rationality and disintegrates, losing his identity as the scholar 'excelling all' to a man who alternates indecisively between wanting to 'repent' to God to asking Lucifer to 'spare' him to be 'dissolved in the elements' - he truly lacks the rationality that we associated with the man we saw in the first scene.

The distinction allows Marlowe to condemn religion and the restraining and tormenting effects it can have.
Original post by kingaaran
He's a man of the Renaissance. He explores the world, learns about the stars, sees 'buildings fair and gorgeous to the eye', 'roads paved with the finest brick' and tastes 'delicate fruits'. The Renaissance focused on knowledge, aesthetics and architecture and I think Faustus does certainly become admirable in his pursuing and quenching of his Renaissance desires.

We might think there is nothing important in seeing buildings or the indian ocean or the stars, but by the humanist ideology of the Renaissance, it truly would have been something you would praised for doing.

I think we cannot say the Faustus towards the end of the play is the Faustus we started with. The Faustus towards the end is tormented by fear, as shown by the psychological nature of the last scene (I don't view it as literal at all). Faustus loses his rationality and disintegrates, losing his identity as the scholar 'excelling all' to a man who alternates indecisively between wanting to 'repent' to God to asking Lucifer to 'spare' him to be 'dissolved in the elements' - he truly lacks the rationality that we associated with the man we saw in the first scene.

The distinction allows Marlowe to condemn religion and the restraining and tormenting effects it can have.


Ah, I think I understand now! I completely overlooked the Renaissance era of the play, focusing more on the Gothic nature of Germany, or the contextual reading of Tudor England. That brings a whole new element to the play. Thank you for explaining that so fully!

So that actually adds to the Gothic reading of the play, with Faustus' disintegrating grasp on the rational and logic he was renown for in the beginning. And it's a direct contrast to the Renaissance that you suggested Faustus was part of; highlighting the obsession with the enlightenment suggests a complete dichotomy to who he is later, showing the two extremes!

I think you've helped me come to a breakthrough in my A2 revision, thanks!
I was wondering whether anyone could let me know the exact mark I'd need in the exam in order to get an A this year?

I got 46/84 on the AS exam and 51/60 on the AS coursework (overall I was one ums off an A)
For my A2 coursework I got 52/60 which is a low A, what would I need on the exam to get an A overall?

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