[JAMESBLO]

Has anyone actually finished a U of London external program degree and gained a training contract in law?

[flynnch]

(Original post by jeeperscreepers)
I am slightly surprised by the negative comments on the University of London International Programme (external system as was). I think it pretty easy to research the University and decide whether its style of study is suitable for you as an individual. It worked for me, but it may not work for everyone.

It is very easy to access Course Materials online, the basic course texts are pretty thin, but they are suppemented by reading lists of free and paid for resources. I have had no problems getting access to all the books I need, either through links to journals through the UoL library or by buying them off Amazon.

The pluses of UoL are:

Well respected degree
Cheap as chips (about £4000 for an under grad degree endorsed by the LSE - bargain of a life time people)
Flexible

The minuses are:
You are basically on your own
The administration can be endearing rather than efficent.

UoL has changed my life - I would not have been able to afford the time or money to go to Uni properly, I am motivated, I did my research on the programme before I signed up and went in with my eyes open. I am on course for an upper second and have the prospect of a post graduate course - I could not be happier with them.

I dont have any grudge with the Open University, my parents both studied with them and they are a good institution as well. If you want the extra support they offer then go ahead. For my money the degree has slightly less impact with employers and other institutions - but it is still highly respected.

My program sends me all textbooks and articles so that I don't have to go out and buy anything.

I haven't worked out the cost but I'm sure I am paying more for that but its better than having to go dig around for the stuff.

I also go to the local uni to study and bug my old profs if I have quetions. It kind of gets you in the right frame of mind.

[DouglasBrown]

(Original post by JAMESBLO)
Has anyone actually finished a U of London external program degree and gained a training contract in law?

Maybe you can contact them and ask. They may keep statistics on where their students go.

Distance learning is always an odd one though to judge, as some of the students may already have some sort of related career and therefore may already have the job lined up.

[Clip]

I think there is some confusion here over what the UoL External Programme is, and what it isn't. This reply refers only to the LLB, which is the most popular course there; also some of the other courses like History and Classics are now taught in a supported online method.

Firstly, you have to understand where the External Programme came from:

It's old. Very old. It dates back to the time of the Empire, when foreign postings were many years long, and there was no provision for Tertiary Education in most of these colonies.

In those days (and is still true now), the UoL was essentially an examining board. In those days of yore, you would sign up to the External Programme, and in May, you'd turn up at the British Consulate, and sit your exams. That was it. No books, no guides, not even a syllabus. Needless to say, very few people passed.

Things developed somewhat to where they are today, with syllabus, books, study guides (basically a heavily annotated syllabus), and some limited online support.

This is what the External Programme is. It's not Birkbeck, it's not OU. It is meant primarily for people living abroad who want to sit a low-cost, degree at their own pace. Look at the cost of the UoL LLB - about £750 for the first year plus an exam fee of £450, and that includes all the core texts (say £150-£200 worth). No, you don't get any support -and maybe they'd do well to highlight that. But the cost is so low, that you cannot be under any reasonable impression that it is anything else. There's no coursework, no feedback, no nothing. If you are after support - you won't get it on this programme.

I went to an induction day at Senate House at the beginning of my programme, and it was quite sobering. The course director made it clear how the programme works, and just how many students are on it - tens of thousands reading the LLB alone at any given time. Some never finish it, but continue registering just to say they are "reading Laws". More sobering was that the course is hard - very hard. The syllabus and exams are set by a conglomeration of the colleges - LSE, QMW, UCL etc., and are of the same standard as the regular London LLB exams. Unfortunately, external students don't get any tutor or lecture time. Conseqently, the pass rate is low (they didn't say exactly how low) and only a tiny proportion of students attain 1st Class Degrees - apparently in the order of 1%.

If you are after an online or supported degree - this might sound really sucky to you. But bear in mind the limitations and the reasons for it. The entire degree programme would cost in the order of £4000 including all books and exams. That would get you through 1/2 a year at OU or about half a semester at regular University.

[Clip]

In terms of whether or not any graduates of UoL External LLB have become solicitors - I don't know, I'm pretty sure they boasted that one graduate has recently taken silk.

You also have to bear in mind that the majority of External LLB students are not in the UK. Of those that are, it wouldn't surprise me if a fair few did become solicitors - but with some provisos:

1. Obviously, not everyone reading a degree in Laws actually intends to practice.

2. There are two ways to read a UoL External LLB - one of which is a graduate route, somewhat analagous to the GDL. Since these candidates are already graduates, they may be better placed than straight undergrads. However, why they don't go straight to the GDL is a mystery to me.

[DouglasBrown]

Thanks Clip that is a good point you make.

The UoL external/international system is not necessarily an alternative to the Open University and nor does it pretend to be. I would say that anyone who has not been in education for a while or needs some extra support will probably find the Open University more suitable.

However your comment about support does not seem to be completely true. Maybe it is true for the undergraduate degrees, in fact I seem to remember reading that the UoL sometimes issues lists of education partners that offer tutoring. Possibly in a similar fashion to the way that training orgainisations like Kaplan offer training for examinations with various industry bodies (e.g. ACA, CFA, FRM).

For postgraduate however some of the institutions offer some level of support. For example a quote from the cefims website :

http://www.cefims.ac.uk/enquiries/Fu...nts_FAQs.shtml

Where are the classes held? Will I have to come to the University of London to study?
Our courses are taught exclusively through distance learning. When you take a course with us, you will be sent a course text and all of the readings that you will require to study for the course. You will also be given access to our Online Study Centre. Through this, you will be able to enter into discussions with your fellow students as well as ask questions of your academic course tutor. The written assignments for each course are submitted electronically through the OSC, and the examinations can be sat locally at one of the University of London’s exam centres.

Is there any help available with my studies?
For each of your courses you are allocated an academic course tutor. During each study session, you can contact your tutor by posting academic queries via the Online Study Centre. There are also forums on the OSC that allow you to discuss the course with your fellow students. Our dedicated Student Support team are able to advise you on any non-academic issues that you may have with your studies.

This does imply a level of support is sometimes given. But unlike the OU there are no face to face sessions at all, and no 'summer schools'. Which suits some people fine.

As far as distance learning law is concerned. This is also available from BPP:

http://www.bpplawschool.com/programmes/llb/

I would expect that the distance learning sector will increase in the next few years, especially for taught postgraduate study. When a new graduate comes out with £25-30k of debt I cannot see how they will be able to fund an extra full time MSc/MA unless their career plan really requires it.

I suppose the worry that a lot of universities have is that they don't want to dilute their brand to much.

EDIT --

Just thought I would add this. I found a link to the 'strategic plan' for the international system:

http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk..._2009_2012.pdf

It is good to see their aims set out like that.

[mahdavi]

I, for one, am starting a training contract at IBB Solicitors in September, having completed the External LLB in 2006, with a 2.1. I did the LLB completely independently, so just a pile of books and an exam at the end. I spent a couple of years doing other work, then started doing my LPC at the CoL in 2009 part time, finishing this June. I got a few interviews despite the 'handicap' of the External degree, and was quite happy to get a TC offer last year. The biggest problem with the External programme is getting a 2.1- the numbers of people who do it are tiny, and getting a TC with a 2.2 is tough. Good luck!

[Jas0nP]

(Original post by mahdavi)
I, for one, am starting a training contract at IBB Solicitors in September, having completed the External LLB in 2006, with a 2.1. I did the LLB completely independently, so just a pile of books and an exam at the end. I spent a couple of years doing other work, then started doing my LPC at the CoL in 2009 part time, finishing this June. I got a few interviews despite the 'handicap' of the External degree, and was quite happy to get a TC offer last year. The biggest problem with the External programme is getting a 2.1- the numbers of people who do it are tiny, and getting a TC with a 2.2 is tough. Good luck!

Hey mahdavi,

Congratulations on your result and your training contract. How many hours per week of study did you do to attain your 2:1? Did you do the course over 3 years also?

Thank you

[llys]

Sorry if it has already been asked, but does anyone know what tuition fees London International (External) will impose from 2012 onwards?

[Daya]

If you study one of the University of London International Programmes will the degree be identical to the one you would get if you'd actually been at the university in London?

Is the degree worth ****? (Please tell me the truth, even if you are pissed off because you were conned)

Incidentally, my guidelines for '****' are as follows:

if you study law, will you be able to practice law (proper law) in the UK
if you study a traditional subject, do you qualify for a teacher's training course or a post graduate degree at a leading uk university (again by leading I mean Russell Group)

[Omissi0n]

I second ILYS above. I´ve looked everywhere and can´t find anything on how UOL External plans on changing its fees next year.

Since OU are going from an average 700 a year to 5000 it is a legitimate question and one wonders why it is not dealt with on the website.

OU are also stipulating that if you enrol on a course this coming academic year, the price of subsequent units will be fixed for the life of the course.

Consequently I am seriously considering it but am pondering the merit of having a UOL degree over an OU degree. Lets face it having a degree from a top 4 university in the UK on your CV must count for something over OU with employers/other educational establishments, however ill founded.

However, the UOL website warns against annual fee increases and I don´t want to sign up for a course and pay my money only to find that if I want to continue I need to fork out a massive sum and I´ve missed my chance at a fixed cost degree with the OU. They state on the UOL site that the only way to avoid these annual increases is to pay for the whole course upfront. This is a standard warning and has been in place for some time and does not address the much larger increases decided on nationwide in recent months.

One wonders if based on the above, they are being elusive on purpose and fully intend on hiking prices in line with other educational establishments including the OU and catch people out who are already invested in courses.

[woogar]

My experience of UoL international programmes has been excellent. For me, distance learning is exactly that, study by myself in my own time. If you want someone to hold your hand and guide you through every step of the way then actually go to University! All of the people moaning on here appear to have pretty invalid reasons.
All of the material for my degree with LSE is online and also sent to me on paper. I have to buy books, but I did that when I went to a brick uni as well.
As for support, you have to support yourself, motivate yourself and crack on and enjoy it. You receive a very worthy degree at the end which is respected world wide. You get this for a fraction of the price it would normally be as well.
All the people that are moaning here seem to be worthless failures who thought it would be an EASY way to get a degree. Wake up, nothing worth having is easy and you need to put the work in.
Unfortunately there is very little 'student feedback' online regarding UoL so I felt compelled to write. I have no experience of OU.
For me it is amazing, the study guides are excellent and the exams are easily passable if you put the work in.
If you have the guts then you should enrol!

[k1tsun3]

(Original post by DouglasBrown)
I have found the Open University to be excellent for undergraduate economics and mathematics. The books were well written and the support was there. The new forum system they have on their website is also much improved over the older software.

It is interesting to read this thread as I was thinking about studying MSc Finance and Financial Law at UoL external (academic direction with SOAS), well actually it is through here:

http://www.cefims.ac.uk/

Now I am slightly confused as the descriptions I am getting from that website do not match the reviews here. The sample material given for each module is not that bad. See the bottom of this page for an example:

http://www.cefims.ac.uk/cgi-bin/prog...=course&id=709

Note that these courses seem to include all set books in the cost.

I can only imagine that the postgraduate courses directed by SOAS are better supported than the LSE directed undergraduate courses.

It is a complete nightmare choosing where to do a part time / distance learning MSc. I have seen courses in Finance (or Financial Mathematics) at Leicester, York, Reading (ICMA), UoL. There are even very expensive part time Finance MSc courses at LSE, Cass and LBS.

I would much prefer a distance learning course, but if I am paying significant amounts of money I want more than a reading list and a list of exam dates.

Thank you so much for this! Will all the talk related to UoL/LSE, and it being negative, it's nice to hear that UoL/SOAS is quite good. I'm currently considering applying for the PG Diploma in Policy Studies, and I was hoping it would offer a bit of support. I'm good to study on my own. The one reason I prefer this to any of the UoL/LSE programs I was considering is that is it 70:30 in favour of written coursework to the exams. I had been looking at the OU, but their fees keep increasing, so I'm hoping this will be better. I'm also considering EUCLID, which is a consortium offering various posrgrad studies in EU and International Diplomacy.

[Kastle]

Some of the negative comments in this thread appear quite ignorant. Nevertheless, I feel inclined to point out that my experience with the UoL external program has been good - its hard, and I can imagine that a lot of students really struggle, but its been worth it for me. I'm doing an MSc in finance from CEFIMS, SOAS. I'm nearing the end, and so far all of the course materials I've received have been very well organized. I like that they provide you with a custom book that essentially substitutes for lectures, and also you are provided with texts and collections of academic articles. I also find that I use the online library system quite heavily. The courses offered under this program are very interesting, and I do believe they are better than any other distance MSc in finance/econ out there. As I said before, the grading is very hard, and I can imagine that this means that many students are left feeling lost and frustrated and even angry at UoL. but at the same time, I find high standards to be motivating, and add additional legitimacy to a mode of study that is still a bit of a gray area in terms of assessing quality. I have a very solid undergraduate education, with a wide breadth of courses in economics and finance and also have a lot of insights into graduate study and teaching through close family/friends in that realm. This program is very "academic", and if you don't know what that means then you might be in for a shock. Your tutors can only do so much for you - at the end of the day you have to have a natural curiosity for these subjects and time and willingness to read read read! Anyway, if you're up for a challenge, can work well independently, and are comfortable with drawing on a lot of the research (academic articles), then you can do well. don't expect an easy ride though.

[star_super789]

(Original post by James1976)
In response to the person speculating that the people posting bad experiences about UoL are conspiring, I would like to say I have not met anyone, anywhere else who is studying there. The whole reason I joined this forum was because I was so enraged at the shoddy treatment I git from the UoL and wanted to share it with others to prevent anyone else going down that path.
In fact, I was surprisingly consoled to find others on here who had problems with this institution. Just to put the icing on the cake, recently this university could not even issue me the proper transcripts without constant reminders,numerous phone calls and emails from my professional university and myself! The University of London External system is a complete joke and I defy anyone who says otherwise!

thanks ev so much mate i was commitiing this mistake but u people stopped me at last minute. u all done really great job posting this.

[bomberdoom]

(Original post by Omissi0n)
I second ILYS above. I´ve looked everywhere and can´t find anything on how UOL External plans on changing its fees next year.

Since OU are going from an average 700 a year to 5000 it is a legitimate question and one wonders why it is not dealt with on the website.

OU are also stipulating that if you enrol on a course this coming academic year, the price of subsequent units will be fixed for the life of the course.

Consequently I am seriously considering it but am pondering the merit of having a UOL degree over an OU degree. Lets face it having a degree from a top 4 university in the UK on your CV must count for something over OU with employers/other educational establishments, however ill founded.

I would like an answer to this as well, this is my main concern. If I put my time and effort into studying the material, it should prepare me for my masters, as in I should have the opportunity to study further, not in the form of a joint course/qualification, but any of the academic degrees offered. I would like to generally know for all the degrees they are offering, any and all traditional subjects/degrees, such as BSc. Economics. Would that make it possible to make avail to higher education, as in a Masters degree at a top university/college, provided I have the marks?

[jeeperscreepers]

I am pretty sure you will not find any problem with a UoL or OU degree in getting on a Masters in the UK. I have a UoL external degree and am studying for a Masters, my wife and my mother both were accepted onto Masters courses with OU degrees.

However I suspect the Masters cultures of other countries may differ. I wonder if anyone else can point to countries where distance learning is less well respected. In the UK at least most universities seem to recognise that independent study can toughen you up as a student and make you at least as ready as someone who has studied internally.

On the fees, the 2012-13 fees have been published,at http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk...ees_1213.shtml

I have no idea what will happen in 2013-14. However it is worth noting that UoL external has always been funded largely through student fees, rather than subsidies from the UK tax payer. So in theory there is no reason why fees should jump significantly in 2013.

[daniel_b]

Hi everyone,
I have just read through all of the comments here and there seems to be quite a bit of criticism regarding UoL External Programme. However, as far as I see none of that criticism concerned the 'Creative Computing' Course that UoL offers.

I'm currently considering whether to apply for this course but I can't find any additional information as to how 'good' the course is. I know that's hard to judge - in fact everyone has to judge it for him/herself. But I was wondering if anyone on this forum has taken or is still taking the 'Creative Computing' course? I appreciate any information you can give me about it!

Thanks a lot!

[abbyheat]

(Original post by jeeperscreepers)
I am pretty sure you will not find any problem with a UoL or OU degree in getting on a Masters in the UK. I have a UoL external degree and am studying for a Masters, my wife and my mother both were accepted onto Masters courses with OU degrees.

However I suspect the Masters cultures of other countries may differ. I wonder if anyone else can point to countries where distance learning is less well respected. In the UK at least most universities seem to recognise that independent study can toughen you up as a student and make you at least as ready as someone who has studied internally.

On the fees, the 2012-13 fees have been published,at http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk...ees_1213.shtml

I have no idea what will happen in 2013-14. However it is worth noting that UoL external has always been funded largely through student fees, rather than subsidies from the UK tax payer. So in theory there is no reason why fees should jump significantly in 2013.

My Indian housemates have said that Indian distance learning institutions tend to not be very well respected although the OU has decent cred among those who actually matter (education institutions, top employers etc)

I was accepted onto a Masters in the USA, one in Australia and one in Denmark with my OU degree although I've chosen to stay in the UK and train to be a teacher instead. Madness, possibly!

[TBD]

What price the premium of a Distance Learning Degree Certificate that is identical to that of the full-time or part-time students ? As the importance of your qualifications is usually at the filter-out sift, a distance learning degree from UoL, or an MBA Durham or Warwick or Imperial is extremely valuable. It is up to you whether you mention Distance Learning on your CV.

In terms of international brand recognition, it is likely to be limited amongst employers except for the top tier names in any case (no clue about OU). I would rather have Imperial or UoL than Joe's Tech College.

TBD