Do you back the junior doctors' strike?
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Frankly yes. The government continues to focus on pay being the issue, when in reality it's the pressure imposed of attempting to run a 7-day NHS without feeling the need to actually meet the needs of those Hunt wants to have as staff.
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Original post by endzone123
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you think investment banking analysts (or even management consultants) work less than junior doctors. be honest, you have absolutely no idea about the level of competition for these roles.
Haha i'm going to stick it out there that there is a wide variation in working hours and my housemate is a management consultant and I damn sure work more hours than him - my 'normal' day is 1 hour longer than his and I do 1 long a week (13 hours) and 1 in 3 weekends (3 13 hour days) and 1 in 5 or 6 nights (13 hours again). That's not including my 2 hour round trip everyday for a job a didn't want or ask for in a place i didn't want to be. It is, however, my easiest ever rota - before this job 2/3rds of my days for the past 1.5 years have been 12-14 hour shifts.
That's not to say I want his job though...
There are pros and cons of every job - one of the cons of medicine is inevitable long hours with little control over your life, hours, holiday or anything really, one of the pros - relative job security once you've been trained, although it is difficult to get the job you want it is easy to get 'any' job. One of the pros of the other fields you mention is that you do have this control back, and you can have a lower stress job if you wish, you have the possibility of astronomical wealth, although you lose the job security and the hours can be absolutely insane if you wish to go for that kind of job.
Finally the office of national statistics (ons.gov.uk i think) puts the average earnings of lawyers, bankers, and I think management consultants at higher than the average doctor but with either the same or fewer hours, while several other fields including engineering, accountants earn less but with a proportional drop in hours so it's fair to say that medics are not especially over the odds well paid (although as above, there are other benefits which come with being a medic). I'm not going to post the link but if you google 'ons' I'm sure you can track it down.
Just my two cents, disbelieve it if you will. This comment also isn't to say I agree with the guy you were posting to but just chucking out some, what I see as facts, for people to read.
Original post by endzone123
where are you all going to disappear to? GP in the australian hinterlands? take a significant pay cut to retrain as accountants?
Just FYI a lot of the 2nd world countries that have medical systems get salary based on commission and extra from pharmaceutical companies peddling their medicine. E.g. An English hospital I am familiar with in a country in eastern asia where the average salary is around £500 a month, the average junior doctor of 4~ years experience (providing they pass their "GMC" equivalent" earns about £4000 a month, NO TAX. You've probably never earned that much, that's a 70k annual salary pre tax here. Generally the best surgeons are paid 20k a month, no tax. Couldn't believe it til I saw proof... but proof I saw (I'm not convinced easily).
Yeah the system is ****ed up and patients are ripped off but they are flowing in money and places like these are begging for foreign English doctors. All this in a country where you can have a night out for £10 and there's sun and beaches. Not to mention y'know there such a thing as private healthcare in the UK and it pays quite well.
Oh and speaking of which as this trend continues that's where things are heading, so better hope you have private medical insurance if not better have 200 quid for a 15 minute consultation with the doctor or tens of thousands for an operation you're due.I have problems with people striking all the time, the tube workers are a bunch of unskilled lazy sods and some public employees whinge a lot. Doctors are one group of people I have absolutely no problem with striking and never will til they get what they deserve.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by haprybeingright
Haha i'm going to stick it out there that there is a wide variation in working hours and my housemate is a management consultant and I damn sure work more hours than him - my 'normal' day is 1 hour longer than his and I do 1 long a week (13 hours) and 1 in 3 weekends (3 13 hour days) and 1 in 5 or 6 nights (13 hours again). That's not including my 2 hour round trip everyday for a job a didn't want or ask for in a place i didn't want to be. It is, however, my easiest ever rota - before this job 2/3rds of my days for the past 1.5 years have been 12-14 hour shifts.
That's not to say I want his job though...
There are pros and cons of every job - one of the cons of medicine is inevitable long hours with little control over your life, hours, holiday or anything really, one of the pros - relative job security once you've been trained, although it is difficult to get the job you want it is easy to get 'any' job. One of the pros of the other fields you mention is that you do have this control back, and you can have a lower stress job if you wish, you have the possibility of astronomical wealth, although you lose the job security and the hours can be absolutely insane if you wish to go for that kind of job.
Finally the office of national statistics (ons.gov.uk i think) puts the average earnings of lawyers, bankers, and I think management consultants at higher than the average doctor but with either the same or fewer hours, while several other fields including engineering, accountants earn less but with a proportional drop in hours so it's fair to say that medics are not especially over the odds well paid (although as above, there are other benefits which come with being a medic). I'm not going to post the link but if you google 'ons' I'm sure you can track it down.
Just my two cents, disbelieve it if you will. This comment also isn't to say I agree with the guy you were posting to but just chucking out some, what I see as facts, for people to read.
That's not to say I want his job though...
There are pros and cons of every job - one of the cons of medicine is inevitable long hours with little control over your life, hours, holiday or anything really, one of the pros - relative job security once you've been trained, although it is difficult to get the job you want it is easy to get 'any' job. One of the pros of the other fields you mention is that you do have this control back, and you can have a lower stress job if you wish, you have the possibility of astronomical wealth, although you lose the job security and the hours can be absolutely insane if you wish to go for that kind of job.
Finally the office of national statistics (ons.gov.uk i think) puts the average earnings of lawyers, bankers, and I think management consultants at higher than the average doctor but with either the same or fewer hours, while several other fields including engineering, accountants earn less but with a proportional drop in hours so it's fair to say that medics are not especially over the odds well paid (although as above, there are other benefits which come with being a medic). I'm not going to post the link but if you google 'ons' I'm sure you can track it down.
Just my two cents, disbelieve it if you will. This comment also isn't to say I agree with the guy you were posting to but just chucking out some, what I see as facts, for people to read.
fair enough. just basing this on the investment banking analysts i know, who all (claim to) work far more than 50 hours a week with unpredictable schedule.
i have no doubt medical graduates can secure decent graduate roles, but that's not the same as a top front office or strategy consulting role on a plate.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ron_trns
This post shows how clueless you really are, large majority of Europe, America, Asia etc...Just FYI a lot of the 2nd world countries that have medical systems get salary based on commission and extra from pharmaceutical companies peddling their medicine. E.g. An English hospital I am familiar with in a country in eastern asia where the average salary is around £500 a month, the average junior doctor of 4~ years experience (providing they pass their "GMC" equivalent" earns about £4000 a month, NO TAX. You've probably never earned that much, that's a 70k annual salary pre tax here. Generally the best surgeons are paid 20k a month, no tax. Couldn't believe it til I saw proof... but proof I saw (I'm not convinced easily).Yeah the system is ****ed up and patients are ripped off but they are flowing in money and places like these are begging for foreign English doctors. All this in a country where you can have a night out for £10 and there's sun and beaches. Not to mention y'know there such a thing as private healthcare in the UK and it pays quite well.Oh and speaking of which as this trend continues that's where things are heading, so better hope you have private medical insurance if not better have 200 quid for a 15 minute consultation with the doctor or tens of thousands for an operation you're due.I have problems with people striking all the time, the tube workers are a bunch of unskilled lazy sods and some public employees whinge a lot. Doctors are one group of people I have absolutely no problem with striking and never will til they get what they deserve.
what a bizarre post. there hasn't been any mention of a mass exodus to thailand... reality is most junior docs can't emigrate to europe or the americas due to language and licensing restrictions.
what level of pay is is that doctors "deserve"? junior docs aside, we have the best paid GPs in europe.
Original post by endzone123
what a bizarre post. there hasn't been any mention of a mass exodus to thailand... reality is most junior docs can't emigrate to europe or the americas due to language and licensing restrictions.
what level of pay is is that doctors "deserve"? junior docs aside, we have the best paid GPs in europe.
what level of pay is is that doctors "deserve"? junior docs aside, we have the best paid GPs in europe.
Plenty of places in these countries accepting English doctors - google it, there is not a mention of it probably because a lot of people aren't aware of it and that's why I mentioned it. There will be a mass exodus of doctors, fairly obvious because the reality is the low end of the scale is really low and you stick there for a long time.. Also our GP's are about average on compensation scale considering London is one of the most expensive places in Europe and it's not particularly one of the best to live either.
You can add Canada to that list too. The real problem is that salaries estimated in certain countries are extremely low because of all extra on side additions. The polls show that there is going to be a huge loss in doctors and the UK already barely has enough doctors as is. Even if the amount that will leave is over estimated and it probably is even a fraction of it and we are screwed.
The NHS will be privatized it's inevitable and in the end the doctors will be earning more and everyone else will be paying more. It's what's gonna happen.
Original post by endzone123
what a bizarre post. there hasn't been any mention of a mass exodus to thailand... reality is most junior docs can't emigrate to europe or the americas due to language and licensing restrictions.
what level of pay is is that doctors "deserve"? junior docs aside, we have the best paid GPs in europe.
what level of pay is is that doctors "deserve"? junior docs aside, we have the best paid GPs in europe.
Well, that is because your head is in the sand. The UK has one of the highest emigration rates of Medical graduates in the world because of under-staffing and poor pay. That is why the UK has the 3rd worst patient to Doctor ratios in Europe behind Ireland and Poland and has one of the highest Foreign Doctor proportions in the world.
Even ignoring that situation, the GP contract is irrelevant to the Junior Doctor Contract. The same way a Nurses contract is irrelevant to the Junior Doctor Contract.
Original post by endzone123
never said anything about being unemployable.
go on, list the superior opportunities open to the average medicine graduate
go on, list the superior opportunities open to the average medicine graduate
Law, Pharmaceuticals, Biotechnology companies. Patent Attorney and etc. That is without thinking.
I have known medics to even move into the Financial industry.
To be honest, it wouldn't be hard to find a job that replaces a 30 grand a year FY1/FY2 job if you are fresh out of Uni as a medical graduate.
I feel like they have exhausted all of their options and at this point, this is the only way to get a realistic negotiation going. I support them in this case. I don't believe it is right for them to be expected to work longer hours, for the patients or the staff.
That being said I've seen other poor practices within the NHS as well. I think the organisation as a whole needs to be thoroughly inspected, and although it is costly, preferably by an outside organisation without an internal bias.
That being said I've seen other poor practices within the NHS as well. I think the organisation as a whole needs to be thoroughly inspected, and although it is costly, preferably by an outside organisation without an internal bias.
Original post by JezWeCan!
Is that what the BMA is thinking? Seriously???
And the patients who will suffer? What about them?
Congratulations. If you really carry out that "strategy" you will go from being the most respected workforce in the nation to the most despised. Even the striking tube drivers, and the greedy grasping bankers will be more highly regarded.
AND you will have to crawl back to work eventually, in dribs and drabs, humiliated and beaten. Working to the despised contract. Hated.
Jesus you guys have lost your minds...
And the patients who will suffer? What about them?
Congratulations. If you really carry out that "strategy" you will go from being the most respected workforce in the nation to the most despised. Even the striking tube drivers, and the greedy grasping bankers will be more highly regarded.
AND you will have to crawl back to work eventually, in dribs and drabs, humiliated and beaten. Working to the despised contract. Hated.
Jesus you guys have lost your minds...
Doctors don't care about being hated or respected.
In effect, you are advocating Slavery. It doesn't matter what contract your boss imposes on you. You are expected to turn up the next day and agree.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Why, so they can take even more from the taxpayer when they take their training and practise in other countries?
Why, so they can take even more from the taxpayer when they take their training and practise in other countries?
Yeh I agree, Medical degrees shouldn't be subsidized.
We can take out loans instead and then charge people extortionate rates like they do in the US. That sounds better.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by DorianGrayism
Yeh I agree, Medical degrees shouldn't be subsidized.
We can take out loans instead and then charge people extortionate rates like they do in the US. That sounds better.
We can take out loans instead and then charge people extortionate rates like they do in the US. That sounds better.
I believe what I implied was that they shouldn't be more subsidised.
US med students pay a lot, but the terms of their employment are good enough that they don't leave. That would seem to me a more sensible way to do things from the point of view of maintaining this country's workforce.
Original post by DanB1991
they still will only work 5 days a week... unless it is overtime.....
I guess I worked those 12 days in a row by accident. Oops!
What's overtime?
Original post by DanB1991
Why should junior doctors get paid any more for working saturdays? I don't know anyone else who does.... they still will only work 5 days a week... unless it is overtime.... which is how it is for the vast majority of JD's anyway.....
Says who Dan? There is no regulatory body to prevent that, are you aware of that?
Original post by endzone123
with increasing demand for services, a 7 day elective service will be much cheaper to run. i'll let you figure out why.
just thought of the other point on this:
elective services require beds - i.e. if there are no beds in the hospitals you will not get admitted to have you operation/procedure
there have been enormous cuts to social care in the past few months
we already have a system that is completely stagnant at the weekends because of a lack of social care at the weekends to discharge people and doesn't cope with emergency admissions because of this
introducing elective procedures at the weekend therefore impossible
Original post by Etomidate
I guess I worked those 12 days in a row by accident. Oops!
What's overtime?
What's overtime?
And what does your contract specifically say then? JD's currently get paid extra for saturday and sundays.
Sorry overtime is completely the wrong word I always get stuck in my head, but no-one else gets paid extra for saturday and sunday work.
Original post by That Bearded Man
Says who Dan? There is no regulatory body to prevent that, are you aware of that?
Weirdly enough I know the individual in charge of arranging JD's contract in the leicester area. He's dumbfounded by the whole thing. All that will change is they will stop getting paid extra for weekend work..... Like everyone else. He admits nobody likes getting paid less, but they shouldn't of been paid extra in the first place.
The whole suggestion that JD's will have to work extra hours is completely unfounded and just used to hype up support.
Original post by DanB1991
And what does your contract specifically say then? JD's currently get paid extra for saturday and sundays.
Sorry overtime is completely the wrong word I always get stuck in my head, but no-one else gets paid extra for saturday and sunday work.
Weirdly enough I know the individual in charge of arranging JD's contract in the leicester area. He's dumbfounded by the whole thing. All that will change is they will stop getting paid extra for weekend work..... Like everyone else. He admits nobody likes getting paid less, but they shouldn't of been paid extra in the first place.
The whole suggestion that JD's will have to work extra hours is completely unfounded and just used to hype up support.
Sorry overtime is completely the wrong word I always get stuck in my head, but no-one else gets paid extra for saturday and sunday work.
Weirdly enough I know the individual in charge of arranging JD's contract in the leicester area. He's dumbfounded by the whole thing. All that will change is they will stop getting paid extra for weekend work..... Like everyone else. He admits nobody likes getting paid less, but they shouldn't of been paid extra in the first place.
The whole suggestion that JD's will have to work extra hours is completely unfounded and just used to hype up support.
Call a plumber, a lawyer or pretty much any professional tomorrow and see if they will do work at the weekend for no extra pay.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Law, Pharmaceuticals, Biotechnology companies. Patent Attorney and etc. That is without thinking.
I have known medics to even move into the Financial industry.
To be honest, it wouldn't be hard to find a job that replaces a 30 grand a year FY1/FY2 job if you are fresh out of Uni as a medical graduate.
I have known medics to even move into the Financial industry.
To be honest, it wouldn't be hard to find a job that replaces a 30 grand a year FY1/FY2 job if you are fresh out of Uni as a medical graduate.
law requires a further two years of full time education. and medicine to patent attorney? maybe that has happened before but you're really clutching at straws
30k graduate jobs are not all that easy to find outside of banking. audit trainees for example earn less than junior docs in every year of training
Original post by endzone123
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you think investment banking analysts (or even management consultants) work less than junior doctors. be honest, you have absolutely no idea about the level of competition for these roles.
I know the quality of the competition of those who get investment banking jobs. People I went to university with, who are certainly competent, but nothing particularly special. The hoops you have to jump through to get such jobs (appitude tests, series of interviews etc) mirror the medical job application process. Moreover, I've never know a doctor who has switched to Investment banking have any particular difficulty getting one. Why would they - they have proven they are hard working, willing to put in the hours and have a clear analytical thought process; all attributes valuable in Investment Banking.
As for hours, I never suggested that Investment Bankers do work less; they certainly get remunerated at a significantly better rate per hour than doctors do.
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