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Should junior doctors continue to strike?

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Should junior doctors continue to strike?

Still no sign of a compromise to end the series of junior doctors strikes.

bbc

Junior doctors' leaders have rejected a "final take-it-or-leave-it" offer made by the government to settle the bitter contract dispute in England.

The offer included a concession on Saturday pay, but the British Medical Association said it was not enough.The development is expected to lead ministers to announce that they are going to impose a contract on doctors.

The news has emerged as doctors took part in their second 24-hour strike - which ended at 08:00 GMT on Thursday.

The contract offered by the government would have seen those working at least one in four Saturdays get extra pay for each of the Saturdays they work.

The move represented a more generous offer than previously, when the bar for extra pay was set at one in three.


How should the dispute be resolved? It's being reported that, if the government imposes contracts, more strikes could happen. So who needs to offer more compromise; the doctors or the government?

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I think the doctors have 'lost' now. By rejecting the last offer, the contract as stated is now going to be imposed regardless. Continue to strike and eventually public support will dwindle fast, a lot like how everyone here in London is fed up with constant tube strikes.
Yes they should continue to strike

If they give up now future contract changes will just be made with out much consultation.


But as MrDystopia says public support will be lost quite quickly HOWEVER this may be different if the government do try and force the contract changes
If the new contract gets imposed anyway, sadly it seems like there's not a whole lot of point. If Hunt isn't going to back down or compromise before the change is made, there's bugger all chance of him reversing the change after it's been made.
Hunt expected to announce imposition anyway...:frown:

Also Hunt vetoed the agreement between NHS Employers and The BMA yesterday.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Reply 5
The government have put the effort in to compromise, at the end of the day, they can only strike for so long, public support is going to be dwindling at this rate.
Reply 6
It's hard to say, because I feel as if Hunt is too stuck in his shoes to offer a good compromise. Yes they've sat at the table and discussed it, but throwing money at doctors when their antisocial hours payments are being scrapped, won't get them to work more or work harder. Surely industrial action and much of the publics support for junior doctors tells Hunt that what he's imposing isn't fair?
Saturday shouldn't be classed as a working day, and the NHS is already providing a 7 day service. If he's trying to close this "inequality" in death rates, then getting doctors to work longer hours than they already do won't help.
It is true that eventually public support will die down like it has done for tube strikes, which is quite sad.
For the time being, at least here on TSR, public favour still seems to be very strongly with the doctors. I hope it remains that way, and I'd like to think that it will; the strike is getting longer and longer, true, but the plight the doctors are in is not getting any less desperate. I will certainly support the doctors for as long as it takes.
Reply 8
The best solution for junior doctors is for their wages to be opened up to the private sector. At the moment they're all employed by the government and there's no competition. Of course no one is going to accept that because they prefer to uphold a bad system rather than get good healthcare.

So until then, the junior doctors can get back to work and compromise on the new contract.
Reply 9
Yes
I haven't got all the details but looking at the proposals put forward by the Government for the Junior Doctor rates for unsocial hours, it looks like the junior doctors/BMA are being unreasonable.

See bottom of this article which shows it clearly:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35546369

Basically looks like the BMA is saying anything worked outside of 8am-8pm Monday to Friday is unsocial whereas the Government had offered two grades of unsocial.
Original post by Zerforax
I haven't got all the details but looking at the proposals put forward by the Government for the Junior Doctor rates for unsocial hours, it looks like the junior doctors/BMA are being unreasonable.

See bottom of this article which shows it clearly:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35546369

Basically looks like the BMA is saying anything worked outside of 8am-8pm Monday to Friday is unsocial whereas the Government had offered two grades of unsocial.


Yet the NHS Employers and BMA agreement is completely unmentioned, the government rejected a compromise agreement between NHSE and the BMA

The big concern is the lack of safeguarding, I don't think they should have had a pay cut because they are already working above and beyond their limits. As for weekend working, it's purpose is perfectly logical, weekends remain the time to see families, to ensure this, the current system rewards people who volunteer to work weekends (single people for instance) meaning that people with families take the pay loss for family time. The inevitable result of this will just mean that people are forced to work weekends when other people could. It's plain nasty.

I know it's a ridiculous comparison, but I again ask, why is it fair that polticians consider 9-5 social hours yet not doctors?

It also ignores Hunt's stupid point, if his goal is to maintain the current quality of service, he imposes the contract, that's a simplistic idea, but instead he wants to cut the costs AND improve the service, which is just idiocy, meaning in a years time we'll hear about increased death rates, quality care falling and the inevitable privatisation point returns.

We all know where this boat is docking.

As for striking, I'm on the fence, I don't see why we should have to accept unfair conditions because "the public respects us" if they do, they'd be calling for a compromise. Saying you sympathise with doctors is pointless if you then support cutting their pay. I back the strikes, otherwise we can see the entire profession destroyed without so much as a whimper.
Original post by sw651
The government have put the effort in to compromise, at the end of the day, they can only strike for so long, public support is going to be dwindling at this rate.


No they haven't, they've been dragging their feet every step of the way. They've lied and misrepresented clinical research, got their mates at the Sun to pry into the private lives of junior doctors and attempt to smear them, and they weren't even willing to go to ACAS. They've bullied every step of the way: the health secretary has refused to engage with a single junior doctor or junior doctors' representative, and he's taken to bunking parliamentary sessions which would lead to awkward questions about the contract. How is any of this consistent with compromise?

It is you and your family who are going to end up being shafted the worst by this contract: once junior doctors are too tired to work safely, are being spread too thinly across seven days, or have simply packed up and left, what kind of service do you think that's going to leave you as a patient?
As for Hunt's veto, please have a read at this, when the BMA and NHSE agreed, Hunt vetoed the deal, this is purely ideological and not in the interest of patients or doctors.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/jeremy-hunt-vetoed-deal-to-end-junior-doctor-dispute-which-was-supported-by-the-nhss-own-negotiators-a6861606.html
Original post by That Bearded Man
Yet the NHS Employers and BMA agreement is completely unmentioned, the government rejected a compromise agreement between NHSE and the BMA

The big concern is the lack of safeguarding, I don't think they should have had a pay cut because they are already working above and beyond their limits. As for weekend working, it's purpose is perfectly logical, weekends remain the time to see families, to ensure this, the current system rewards people who volunteer to work weekends (single people for instance) meaning that people with families take the pay loss for family time. The inevitable result of this will just mean that people are forced to work weekends when other people could. It's plain nasty.

I know it's a ridiculous comparison, but I again ask, why is it fair that polticians consider 9-5 social hours yet not doctors?

It also ignores Hunt's stupid point, if his goal is to maintain the current quality of service, he imposes the contract, that's a simplistic idea, but instead he wants to cut the costs AND improve the service, which is just idiocy, meaning in a years time we'll hear about increased death rates, quality care falling and the inevitable privatisation point returns.

We all know where this boat is docking.

As for striking, I'm on the fence, I don't see why we should have to accept unfair conditions because "the public respects us" if they do, they'd be calling for a compromise. Saying you sympathise with doctors is pointless if you then support cutting their pay. I back the strikes, otherwise we can see the entire profession destroyed without so much as a whimper.


Could you give some background/links to the NHSE and the BMA? I honestly don't know anything about it.

Well personally it feels like junior doctors are trying to hide behind safeguards but really only care about their money.

Society has moved on (with technology, transport etc) where everything is always available. MPs don't really work since they all need to be together to debate issues.

Doctors, on an individual level, (I do note they need other support from staff and equipment etc) don't need each other to do their job. Patients and illness do not work 9-5pm. There are plenty of other jobs who have shifted outside of 9-5pm schedules:

- supermarket staff can be made to work 24 hours all week (except Sunday evening/night)
- customer support staff have been pushed into working Saturdays
- retail staff at shopping centres have been pushed into working later evenings and Saturdays
- restaurant/bar staff work late on Friday and Saturdays

So it's fine for those people to lose time with their families because they have no choice or can't afford not to work those unsocial hours but it's unfair for junior doctors to work on a rota?
Original post by That Bearded Man
As for Hunt's veto, please have a read at this, when the BMA and NHSE agreed, Hunt vetoed the deal, this is purely ideological and not in the interest of patients or doctors.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/jeremy-hunt-vetoed-deal-to-end-junior-doctor-dispute-which-was-supported-by-the-nhss-own-negotiators-a6861606.html


"The Government is determined not to yield ground on its plans reclassify Saturdays as normal working hours, as it would set a precedent for contract negotiations with other NHS staffing groups, including nurses, who are expecting to enter negotiations about new contracts later this year.

Sources familiar with the Government’s approach to the junior doctor contract negotiations have told The Independent that one of ministers’ priorities is to reduce the cost of NHS staffing bill by bringing contracts into line with many in the private sector which make no distinction between weekend and weekday pay rates."

Taken from your article. Tbh I agree with Hunt on that point.
Reply 16
Yes they should continue to strike, if that is what is needed. The issues run far deeper than the money involved. If all you care about is earning money you wouldn't be a doctor, because there are far easier ways of earning it.
Reply 17
No.
Plenty of other folk work weekends. what makes them special?
Stuff em. It's a pity it's not legal to sack 'em and replace them with others folk.
Reply 18
Original post by JC.
No.
Plenty of other folk work weekends. what makes them special?
Stuff em. It's a pity it's not legal to sack 'em and replace them with others folk.


You clearly don't understand the issue at hand.
Original post by shooks
Still no sign of a compromise to end the series of junior doctors strikes.



How should the dispute be resolved? It's being reported that, if the government imposes contracts, more strikes could happen. So who needs to offer more compromise; the doctors or the government?


Too late the contract is going ahead. The doctors are being very greedy. The bastards have been given a rise of 11% yet they don't want to work a bit longer on the weekends? ****ing greedy tossers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12151643/Junior-doctors-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves.html

They say many will leave to go and work in another country, well let them **** off. Millions of good doctors from other countries will be more than thankful for such a contract.

The BMA, which represents 153,000 doctors, wants any Saturday working hours to count as overtime.

It's ALL about the MONEY! they can deny it over and over and over again, they are in it for the ****ing money not the patients.
(edited 8 years ago)

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