Should junior doctors continue to strike?
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Original post by enaayrah
Unrelated but I just saw someone post on facebook about their medicine offer, only to go on and complain about the pay they'll potentially get as a junior doctor
So much for compassion and doing it to help people right?
Also, nurses work just as many unsocial hours, with just as much stress, never hear them complaining.
So much for compassion and doing it to help people right?
Also, nurses work just as many unsocial hours, with just as much stress, never hear them complaining.
I can tell you that nurses don't work as many hours, they are contracted for 37.5 and whilst they may stay late, that's they hours they will generally work. Far less than the 48 hours a week(minimum) junior doctors are scheduled for.
Nurses also get payments for unsocial hours.
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Original post by enaayrah
Also, nurses work just as many unsocial hours, with just as much stress, never hear them complaining.
Also, nurses work just as many unsocial hours, with just as much stress, never hear them complaining.
I hear them compaining quite a lot, as it goes. And even if they didn't, the fact that one group of people doesn't complain doesn't mean that another group shouldn't..
Original post by SMEGGGY
Too late the contract is going ahead. The doctors are being very greedy. The bastards have been given a rise of 11% yet they don't want to work a bit longer on the weekends? ****ing greedy tossers.
If you get a pay rise, yet are expected to work more hours in order to earn it, it's not really a pay rise is it?
Original post by sw651
Oh God, get off your bloody soap box. Why do doctors think they are bloody entitled because they are doctors. What about factory workers they can lose limbs, investment bankers can lose billions, truck drivers can kill through tiredness. Do they protest? No, they accept it.
Well if there's actually a problem, maybe they should?
If we didn't have decent health and safety at work laws, I would fully and 100% support the right of factory workers to strike in order to secure their collective safety. Similarly, if truck drivers were being forced to drive unsafe hours, I'd also support their right to give their employer hell.
You strike me as one of those people that likes to whinge whenever the Tube drivers go on strike...wahhhhh, I'm getting ****ed over in my workplace, so why can't they?
The Tube workers know their rights and they don't like to be **** on by their management. Similarly, medics know what's best and safest for patients - and equally, we don't appreciate being forced to do something we know is unsafe and unfair.
It boggles the mind that you think this is about entitlement rather than a genuine attempt to ensure the safety of you and your family, or some other poor sod's family, next time you're in hospital.
Original post by enaayrah
Unrelated but I just saw someone post on facebook about their medicine offer, only to go on and complain about the pay they'll potentially get as a junior doctor
So much for compassion and doing it to help people right?
Also, nurses work just as many unsocial hours, with just as much stress, never hear them complaining.
So much for compassion and doing it to help people right?
Also, nurses work just as many unsocial hours, with just as much stress, never hear them complaining.
Because this one person on your Facebook is clearly representative of all medics right?
Also, do nurses graduate with the same amount of student debt, have to pay GMC registration, postgraduate training and exam fees that run into the thousands, and on top of that accept ultimate responsibility for the patient like doctors do?
Yeah nurses work long hours, are perennially under appreciated and underpaid, and forever looked down upon by snobby people - but that doesn't mean the two roles are interchangeable.
Original post by sw651
Read the context before attacking my post
Maybe if you fact checked or thought about what you were saying you would not have to try and weasel your way out of stupid comments so much.
Your context was perfectly clear. People's health does not keep to a 9-5, mon-fri schedule. So you either think doctors don't work operate in time outside that slot in which case a quick google search of hours doctors work would show how you are wrong. Or you are just pointing out the obvious for no reason.
Original post by sw651
Next time you buy a new phone, get paid some money, receive a delivery. Just remember that the people that do that work as hard, if not harder in some cases than doctors, a lot for less pay and longer hours, with equally bad risks
So what... you're a socialist now?
I do think about them. Especially since I have been one of them. Although I never worked 14 hour shifts...
Instead of demanding poorer working conditions for doctors to bring them down to what you perceive they should be in your fantasy land maybe improve the plight of those working class people you just listed? When those working class people do protest your sort are the first to complain lol.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by frankieboy
If you get a pay rise, yet are expected to work more hours in order to earn it, it's not really a pay rise is it?
Yet nor is it the pay cut that people are trying to tout it as.
Original post by Jammy Duel
Or the BMA could have actually negotiated rather than rejecting actually kinda what they wanted. If instead of saying "we want to set the agenda" they had actually made more agreements on pay they wouldn't have had it forced upon them with the BMA not expecting Hunt to call their bluff even though, in reality, it was pretty obvious it was going to happen.
A compromise agreement was made and agreed on, Hunt vetoed it.
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Original post by sw651
Read the context before attacking my post
So when you said that doctors need to get used to working outside the 9-5 you actually realise that they don't work 9-5?
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Original post by That Bearded Man
Citation?
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When I need a doctor I want an intelligent one who is not so tired they talk to imaginary people. If there are no doctors god help the investment bankers when they fall sick, because a phone ap, all Hunt wants you to have, isn't going to help.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121152
and Hunt's veto - try http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/jeremy-hunt-vetoed-deal-to-end-junior-doctor-dispute-which-was-supported-by-the-nhss-own-negotiators-a6861606.html
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121152
and Hunt's veto - try http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/jeremy-hunt-vetoed-deal-to-end-junior-doctor-dispute-which-was-supported-by-the-nhss-own-negotiators-a6861606.html
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Jammy Duel
Yet nor is it the pay cut that people are trying to tout it as.
£7.89 an hour is a pay rise is it?
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Original post by Jammy Duel
See above
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I'm ambivalent as to whether junior doctors should take any more strike action. The strikes did achieve some things: the basic pay rise has now increased to 13.5%, and some issues such as the safeguards being in place to ensure that doctors are not overworked have been partially dealt with, given that guardian role has been put in place. Yet, further strike action would likely lead to less public support for the junior doctors over time, simply because humans are inconsistent.
Having said that, this government has deliberately lied to the British public, from trying to claim that the 11% rise in basic pay would compensate 99% of doctors, and later changing that to 75% of doctors (with even that number being highly questionable); to misrepresenting studies on weekend mortality; to even going so far as to claim that 20 NHS chiefs had supported imposing the contract on junior doctors when it turns out that many of them had not.
The issue of weekends is integral to this dispute, because Jeremy Hunt wishes to use existing resources (money, junior doctors, and so on) and spread them over seven days, despite the fact that resources are already stretched thin as it is.
There is nothing wrong in principle with a fully seven-day NHS service (junior doctors, of course, already work seven-days, just not in all areas), but unless Jeremy Hunt is willing to pay for this seven-day NHS service, anyone who has a grasp of elementary mathematics would note that spreading existing resources over seven days is a terrible policy - the sums do not add up. (One analogy seen on the internet sums it up perfectly: "Chef takes a knob of butter, THINLY spreads 5 slices of bread, boss says, make it fit Seven slices, diners complain.")
The Government use the line that they're injecting £10bn extra into the NHS, but that is to maintain existing services, not to fund their seven-day NHS. Given that Britain spends far less on health as a proportion of GDP than every other developed country, there's a lot of room to fund this fully seven-day service which, I repeat, is not a bad idea in principle.
This is a fundamentally misconceived policy from the Government, and it is in the interest of patients for them to reconsider immediately, and either accept the BMA's offer of a cost-neutral deal, or be prepared to ensure that extra resources are devoted to maintaining their seven-day service. That means more doctors and more money spent on health.
Even though I personally wouldn't mind the pay cut if I were a junior doctor, junior doctors working more unsocial hours for less pay is simply going to demoralise them, with more time being spent away from their families. Additionally, by imposing this contract, Jeremy Hunt is going to force more doctors to move elsewhere, and given that doctors are already flocking out of Britain in large numbers, this is incredibly dangerous.
Unlike the so-called "wealth creators", who, every time they threaten to leave because their six-figure salary is being slightly reduced, get their way, the fact that the health creators of Britain - who really do have options elsewhere - are not being listened to is a shambles.
I would highly recommend listening to this eloquent junior doctor, who appeared on the BBC a few days ago.
So, does that mean that junior doctors still shouldn't oppose the contract? Of course not. But, the British Medical Association's strategy has to be smart, and this article provides some good suggestions.
Having said that, this government has deliberately lied to the British public, from trying to claim that the 11% rise in basic pay would compensate 99% of doctors, and later changing that to 75% of doctors (with even that number being highly questionable); to misrepresenting studies on weekend mortality; to even going so far as to claim that 20 NHS chiefs had supported imposing the contract on junior doctors when it turns out that many of them had not.
The issue of weekends is integral to this dispute, because Jeremy Hunt wishes to use existing resources (money, junior doctors, and so on) and spread them over seven days, despite the fact that resources are already stretched thin as it is.
There is nothing wrong in principle with a fully seven-day NHS service (junior doctors, of course, already work seven-days, just not in all areas), but unless Jeremy Hunt is willing to pay for this seven-day NHS service, anyone who has a grasp of elementary mathematics would note that spreading existing resources over seven days is a terrible policy - the sums do not add up. (One analogy seen on the internet sums it up perfectly: "Chef takes a knob of butter, THINLY spreads 5 slices of bread, boss says, make it fit Seven slices, diners complain.")
The Government use the line that they're injecting £10bn extra into the NHS, but that is to maintain existing services, not to fund their seven-day NHS. Given that Britain spends far less on health as a proportion of GDP than every other developed country, there's a lot of room to fund this fully seven-day service which, I repeat, is not a bad idea in principle.
This is a fundamentally misconceived policy from the Government, and it is in the interest of patients for them to reconsider immediately, and either accept the BMA's offer of a cost-neutral deal, or be prepared to ensure that extra resources are devoted to maintaining their seven-day service. That means more doctors and more money spent on health.
Even though I personally wouldn't mind the pay cut if I were a junior doctor, junior doctors working more unsocial hours for less pay is simply going to demoralise them, with more time being spent away from their families. Additionally, by imposing this contract, Jeremy Hunt is going to force more doctors to move elsewhere, and given that doctors are already flocking out of Britain in large numbers, this is incredibly dangerous.
Unlike the so-called "wealth creators", who, every time they threaten to leave because their six-figure salary is being slightly reduced, get their way, the fact that the health creators of Britain - who really do have options elsewhere - are not being listened to is a shambles.
I would highly recommend listening to this eloquent junior doctor, who appeared on the BBC a few days ago.
So, does that mean that junior doctors still shouldn't oppose the contract? Of course not. But, the British Medical Association's strategy has to be smart, and this article provides some good suggestions.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by That Bearded Man
From?
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Original post by That Bearded Man
Original post by Jammy Duel
Yet nor is it the pay cut that people are trying to tout it as.
If pay isn't being cut, why will most doctors need pay protection to prevent their pay from falling under the new contract?
Original post by Captain Crash
If pay isn't being cut, why will most doctors need pay protection to prevent their pay from falling under the new contract?
Pay protection is not s new thing
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Original post by Jammy Duel
Your point?
Without pay protection, my pay will decrease. The pay protection is time limited and will essentially see my pay flatline despite moving to more senior roles that would see a pay increase. Doctors who follow won't have the protection and will have to work for the lower pay.
Tell me again why the contract doesn't cut pay?
fewer doctors going into speciality training, applications to medical schools declining - and even foreign doctors don't want to work in some specialities http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/28/-sp-nhs-hires-3000-foreign-doctors-staff-shortage There will be even fewer wanting to work in those specialities in future
International comparisons usually show the NHS as very cost effective http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/files/publications/fund-report/2014/jun/1755_davis_mirror_mirror_2014.pdf and insurance based systems like America's as more expensive and poor value.
Hunt is exploiting doctor's dedication to their patients. Junior doctors already work a 7 day week - unlike politicians - and in their "free" time have to study for exams that they pay for themselves. It's difficult to maintain any sort of social life. For this they get paid about what they'd earn in a far less demanding job that wouldn't require them to work Christmas or to pay 9% of their salary for their student loan.
Can't understand why anyone would want to do the job but be grateful still some do.
International comparisons usually show the NHS as very cost effective http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/files/publications/fund-report/2014/jun/1755_davis_mirror_mirror_2014.pdf and insurance based systems like America's as more expensive and poor value.
Hunt is exploiting doctor's dedication to their patients. Junior doctors already work a 7 day week - unlike politicians - and in their "free" time have to study for exams that they pay for themselves. It's difficult to maintain any sort of social life. For this they get paid about what they'd earn in a far less demanding job that wouldn't require them to work Christmas or to pay 9% of their salary for their student loan.
Can't understand why anyone would want to do the job but be grateful still some do.
Original post by Captain Crash
Your point?
Without pay protection, my pay will decrease. The pay protection is time limited and will essentially see my pay flatline despite moving to more senior roles that would see a pay increase. Doctors who follow won't have the protection and will have to work for the lower pay.
Tell me again why the contract doesn't cut pay?
Without pay protection, my pay will decrease. The pay protection is time limited and will essentially see my pay flatline despite moving to more senior roles that would see a pay increase. Doctors who follow won't have the protection and will have to work for the lower pay.
Tell me again why the contract doesn't cut pay?
Bye bye premium pay (mostly), plus base rate. Again, if I paid 5 hours at a tenner per hour, and then another 5 at twenty, if I instead went to a flat 15 for all 10 have I just had a pay cut?
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