widening participation at Uni

hermaphrodite

What do people think of the pro-ative recruitment of students from "non traditional" backgrounds. For or Against?

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Reply 1

gas_panic!

What does "non traditional" mean?

Reply 2

Tomharper

I think it means people whose parent's didn't go to university, from low income familes, very low achieving schools and lives in areas with practically no history of sending people to higher education.

I support it to some extent to be honest. I mean I don't support someone with like BCC grades being admitted to Oxbridge simply because of their background. However, I support ideas like Cambridge whom take into these factors into someone's application. So if someone achieves AAB and is from the non-traditional backgrounds he /she should be considered on par with someone from a elite private school student with AAAA.

Yes; I agree.

Does "widening participation" mean the creation of ever more ludicrous, irrelevant, and dumbed down degree programmes that just about anybody can pass?

Reply 5

Howard

Tomharper

But he isn't on a par is he? However you look at it AAAA is much better than AAB.

Reply 6

shady lane

But some people due to their backgrounds will be unable to get AAA. The reason they introduced EMA is so that poor students don't have to work part-time while doing A-Levels. But even £30/week isn't much, especially in London. If you need to work or your school has horrible teaching, AAB might really have taken as much effort and academic ability as AAA from someon from a public school with excellent teaching who has no financial constraints.

I can say that I have a number of cousins who went to top public/private schools in the UK, plus had private tuition during holidays, and STILL didn't get AAA. Do you really think someone from Hackney College from a poor background with AAB isn't more talented??

Reply 7

Howard

shady lane

It's absolutely impossible to make that call. Maybe and maybe not. But it would hardly be fair to give an AAB student from Hackney a place in Oxford over a better educated AAAA student based on the assumption that the AAB student would have got AAAAA had he had the same education.

That strikes me as awarding a British swimmer a gold medal when he only got silver based on the idea that he would have beaten the winner had his training facilities been better.

Reply 8

shady lane

Well being a swimmer and getting a medal isn't a fair comparison to getting a decent education which allows you access to the most high-paying and prestigious careers, which can change your life and your family's. They are different circumstances entirely.

If you get AAB at a school with metal detectors where teachers are focused on preventing fights rather than teaching (my ex-bf from Croydon College escaped to a good university but he is VERY rare in that respect), then frankly you are clever and deserve to be considered against your circumstances. It's easy to get AAA at a good school if you're clever; it's not easy to get AAA from a crap school if you're clever.

Reply 9

Tomharper

But it would hardly be fair to give an AAB student from Hackney a place in Oxford over a better educated AAAA student based on the assumption that the AAB student would have got AAAAA had he had the same education.

Although the private school student most likely would have been prepared for the Oxbridge interviews (my step brother was), but what I'm trying to say is the student with AAB should be given a chance for an interview and not simply be rejected because of his grades being slightly below the typical Oxbridge offer.

Reply 10

L i b

shady lane

If you get AAB at a school with metal detectors where teachers are focused on preventing fights rather than teaching (my ex-bf from Croydon College escaped to a good university but he is VERY rare in that respect), then frankly you are clever and deserve to be considered against your circumstances. It's easy to get AAA at a good school if you're clever; it's not easy to get AAA from a crap school if you're clever.

And perhaps the student from the "good school" had his own problems - maybe his family were breaking up, or his father was beating his mother. Maybe his girlfriend or boyfriend has just killed himself, and his dog had died.

It's not for you to look at one attribute of a person and judge their entire life achievements based on that single factor.

Well, now, my answer to the question: I think it's quite pointless. By the age where it becomes relevant (ie, the later half of secondary school) then your attitude towards education and learning has already been established. At this point it is clear who has the potential to go to a real university and who has not.

Widening access at this stage IS dumbing down.

Reply 11

Howard

shady lane

Ah, but where does it stop? You get an AAB but hey - you come from a single parent family (award yourself 10 points) you went to a crap school (here - have another 10), you've got flat feet (10 more for that), you're an ethnic minority (10 more) etc etc "et voila" - AAAA! congratulations! Off you go to Magdeline College!

or

You get an AAAA but hey - you come from a two parent family and dad's a Barister (deduct 10 points) you went to a a $20k a year private school (deduct another 10), you're an odious white colour (10 more off) etc etc "et voila" - ABB! congratulations! Off you go to Luton!

How could you possibly administer a system like this? Bespoke marking for every student in the nation?

People should stop being so bitter. I had a crap education and went to a crap uni but do pretty well anyway - frankly probably rather better than most ex Oxford graduates. It taught me also to value education which makes me far more interested in pushing my kids in that direction than my parents were. Maybe they'll go to Oxford in my place? Maybe I can experience it through them?

The fact that I didn't go anywhere grand - it didn't "happen to me" - really doesn't worry me. Families can "improve" generation by generation - bit by bit - I'm the first in my family EVER to go to uni, ever to achieve 4 degrees, ever to emigrate and build a life in another country, ever to own 3 homes, ever to be on the brink of senior management with a blue chip company, ever to be ordained a priest. That's my life's achievements so far and I've got plenty left in me yet. Perhaps my kids will do greater things but I'm certainly not bitter because nobody fiddled my grades to sneak me in the back door at Oxford.

Reply 12

shady lane

It should be based on your school and your family's income. Period. Those are the two biggest factors in educational opportunity, not divorce or depression or any of the other "where does the madness stop!!!!!!" points you have tried to make.

AAB from a crap school from a student with a poor background deserves a second glance. That's all I'm saying. I know plenty of people I went to university with you got lower than average SAT scores due to poor background and schooling; one is graduating this year Phi Beta Kappa and several have graduated with honors. If you really think this is "dumbing down" then perhaps you don't know enough people who have come from this kind of background.

Reply 13

L i b

shady lane

Any evidence to support that view whatsoever?

I know plenty of people I went to university with you got lower than average SAT scores due to poor background and schooling; one is graduating this year Phi Beta Kappa and several have graduated with honors. If you really think this is "dumbing down" then perhaps you don't know enough people who have come from this kind of background.

To be frank, passing an honours degree isn't really that tricky. When they get a chair at Harvard, then you can start shouting it from the rooftops.

Reply 14

Howard

Lib North

To be frank, passing an honours degree isn't really that tricky. When they get a chair at Harvard, then you can start shouting it from the rooftops.

I think a consistent 50% (for the last 2 years of 3) will get you an honors degree. Not that much of a challenge.

Reply 15

naivesincerity

shady lane

AAB from a crap school from a student with a poor background deserves a second glance. That's all I'm saying. .

Someone who achieved that in a disruptive school may be as good as someone who achieved AAA in a peaceful school with great tuition, I'd agree if that's what you're getting it. The trouble is ther's no way of proving a school is bad because it's bad, or because the pupils that go there just are more dumb. Nature/nurture is the argument here.
Some dangerous assumptions you're making. That people in the worst catchment areas are there solely through chance, and not perhaps there because they are more stupid/unruly/whatever. That the sschool is achieving bad results because of teaching and not because of the caliber of pupil. That poor people are always subject to more stress.
There may well be an (at least vague) positive correlation between class and intellect, offensive to some though that is. I am completely with Howard on this one. No adjustments for grades should be made.

Reply 16

shady lane

Lib North

Any evidence to support that view whatsoever?

To be frank, passing an honours degree isn't really that tricky. When they get a chair at Harvard, then you can start shouting it from the rooftops.

At Stanford, an honors degree requires a minimum 3.5 GPA and a 10,000 word thesis which must receive an A- or higher. And Phi Beta Kappa...well it requires so many things that I won't bother listing them.

Reply 17

Howard

shady lane

I can knock out a 10,000 word thesis in a week. In fact, I've just pumped out 35,000 words in 3 weeks. Not impressed.

Reply 18

shady lane

Lib North

Any evidence to support that view whatsoever?

Between 1970 and 1990, the number of people in the United States living in high-poverty census tracts (with poverty rates of 40 percent or more) nearly doubled, from 4.1 to 8.0 million. Children who live in poor urban neighborhoods are disproportionately likely to be members of racial and ethnic minority groups and are also at greater risk for school failure. For example, only 11 percent of fourth graders attending high-poverty schools in Washington, D.C., scored at or above basic level on the government's National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) math test, far lower than the national average of 62 percent. Dropout rates in Washington remain on the order of 30 to 40 percent, many times higher than the national average. ^1 Why do high-poverty urban areas have such problems with schooling outcomes? Sociologists, psychologists, and a growing number of economists believe that the prevalence within a neighborhood of social problems such as poverty and joblessness affect the life chances of area residents. If so, policies [End Page 147] that reduce the degree of economic residential segregation may also improve the educational outcomes of poor children. Given the persistent correlation between race and social class in America, policies that help reduce the degree of neighborhood racial segregation could potentially have the same effect. ^2