widening participation at Uni

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shady lane

Do you have a PhD then, Mr. Big Stuff? I bet you can write 100,000 words in a week, but it doesn't mean they're coherent.

No. I'll be starting my doctoral next year.

Reply 21

naivesincerity

All this social engineering is absurd. As I have clearly explained, there's no way you can measure what's fair, and how much of a schools bad results are due to the school and how much are due to the innate qualities of the pupils is impossible to determine. People should, as Howard suggests, stop whining about their station in life and just focus on doing their personal best.

Reply 22

shady lane

They're not whining. They're just studing at Uni of Hertfordshire and London Met, while the same middle and upper classes are at the best universities.

You're very callous to think "whining about one's station" is wishing you had a good education and the opportunity to do what thick rich kids get to do simply because they went to St. Pauls.

And for the record, I don't come from a poor background, but frankly I think someone who can achieve given the horror of some environments deserves an opportunity. Call me a bleeding heart liberal; I don't care. I like to think about it as compassion. And I don't spend my time worrying that some poor, unqualified Bangaladeshi kid is going to steal my spot at a top uni or job because I'm somehow more entitled than him, apparently since my parents have good jobs. It's absurd.

Reply 23

naivesincerity

Shady you're not having my point are you? That people in poor neigbourhoods might not necessarily be achiveing less because schools themselves are poorer, but simply because it's likely that, despite exceptions, people in lesser economic circumstances are likely to be less able, or less ambitious overall. Think about why they're in that position, and how people have got into the middle classes.

Reply 24

Agent Smith

Allowing stupid people to go to Oxbridge simply because they have the misfortune to be poor as well? What a brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that?

Reply 25

shady lane

So getting AAB or AAA in blacklisted subjects (b/c your school gives you no guidance on these matters) means you're stupid? Wow Agent Smith...I don't even know what to say.

Reply 26

shady lane

Agent Smith

Allowing stupid people to go to Oxbridge simply because they have the misfortune to be poor as well? What a brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that?

Just wanted to quote this because I don't want you changing it. What a horrible thing to say.

Reply 27

naivesincerity

It's a subtle point about cause and effect. There is no evidence that badly performing schools in poor areas are doing so solely because of crap teaching, or even disruptive pupils.
They may well be doing so, because, big surprise, more people in bad areas will be not academically able. So the kid who does well is doing well closer to the level that they'd do well in a better school, if their environment is less to do with their success than you are making out.

Reply 28

Agent Smith

shady lane

Just wanted to quote this because I don't want you changing it. What a horrible thing to say.

You're right. "Stupid" was a pretty unpleasant term for me to use. I apologise. As you might have guessed, I have very strong feelings on the subject, which is probably why I didn't think enough before posting that.

However, that said I really do not see why a poor background should gain one an unfair advantage over smart people who happened to have rich parents. At least, certainly not for a few years, while there are still grammar-school leavers coming up through the system, because grammar schools allow smart-but-poor kids to do well - extremely well - for free. Once Labour and the Tories have combined to kill them off and top-notch education does become the luxury of the rich, then I might have to support "access schemes" simply because the other means of levelling the financial playing-field will have been removed.

Reply 29

billydisco

Tomharper

I think it means people whose parent's didn't go to university, from low income familes, very low achieving schools and lives in areas with practically no history of sending people to higher education.

I support it to some extent to be honest. I mean I don't support someone with like BCC grades being admitted to Oxbridge simply because of their background. However, I support ideas like Cambridge whom take into these factors into someone's application. So if someone achieves AAB and is from the non-traditional backgrounds he /she should be considered on par with someone from a elite private school student with AAAA.

i dont agree with that bit. You dont know if the person would have achieved AAAA like the privately educated person!

infact thats completely taking any achievement away from the person with four A's. Its like saying they only got it because of their teachers and not their hard work.

Reply 30

billydisco

shady lane

It should be based on your school and your family's income. Period. Those are the two biggest factors in educational opportunity, not divorce or depression or any of the other "where does the madness stop!!!!!!" points you have tried to make.

AAB from a crap school from a student with a poor background deserves a second glance. That's all I'm saying. I know plenty of people I went to university with you got lower than average SAT scores due to poor background and schooling; one is graduating this year Phi Beta Kappa and several have graduated with honors. If you really think this is "dumbing down" then perhaps you don't know enough people who have come from this kind of background.

why does income have to come into it???

What if parents earn millions yet they dont spend it on their childrens education!?

This country has free libraries and APPARENTLY a good comprehensive education system....

Reply 31

Thud

love2learn7

because libraries in deprived areas are more likely to lack resources/be closed down entirely, likewise with comps.

although, to be fair to the government, once you get to uni, if you've got a poor background then you can get like £3k in grants a year which is pretty useful. though you've gotta get there in the first place which is where the problems really are.

Reply 32

ForeverIsMyName

Thud

although, to be fair to the government, once you get to uni, if you've got a poor background then you can get like £3k in grants a year which is pretty useful. though you've gotta get there in the first place which is where the problems really are.

Oh yeah, so hard to get 3 A-levels and write a ****ty and mediocre personal statement.

Reply 33

Thud

ForeverIsMyName

Oh yeah, so hard to get 3 A-levels and write a ****ty and mediocre personal statement.

well...yes actually.

if you go to a crap school, crap learning enviroment, no one believing you can do it, parents not motivating you, lack of money, all your mates dropping out at 16, teachers have no confidence in you etc etc etc.

i love how you lot always ignore these things and bang on about how fair it is, and that people should be able to get over these things to get AAA. that's true, some can still get AAA despite all this, but in no way at all are they on equal footing with Perkins over there at eton.

Reply 34

Agent Smith

If "no-one believing you can do it" includes yourself, that's your own problem.

Reply 35

ForeverIsMyName

Thud

Good.

Its that kind of helpless attitude that socialists seem to attribute to the working class (And whoever doesn't subscribe to this attitude is a filthy rich, capitalist prole-hating tory) which probably causes all these problems in the first place, the idea that only the state can help people out of poverty and that unless some magical government program is capable of removing the barriers known as "hard work" and "self-help", then people are merely impersonal objects shaped by whatever environment they happen to be bought up in. It's bull****, I somehow doubt Branson and Sugar had that attitude, and the attitude remains the problem; not the outside condition.

The people at Eton don't represent the problem; they represent the solution.

Agent Smith

If "no-one believing you can do it" includes yourself, that's your own problem.

Agreed.

Reply 36

ForeverIsMyName

Thud

so there's your Branson and Sugar (although...looking at wikipedia it appears Branson went to a public school, ooh, bet that one hurt?), and i just admitted this was possible so wtf are you getting at FIMN?

So what? I was speaking about his attitude, not his education. He started his business at age 15 with practically no money whatsoever, and in this lies the cure for the problem.

however, in the vast majority of cases this cannot happen

Why not?

, and yes AS because people do rely on others for support and motivation, especailly as we're growing up. if you're told from your first day of school until your last that you're crap, you'll not achieve anything except a job in mcdonalds at best then you might just start to believe it. kick a man enough times and he stays down. why does this very very very simple point not occur to you two? i can't help but imagine the kind of white middle class typical upbringing you had to have complete ignorance of the fact that outside influences play some rather large role. especially when coupled with the crap school, homelife, general enviroment, parents having not gone to uni etc.

So what? The solution lies in attitude because a lack of optimistic, self-improving attitude is what causes the problem - Getting 3 a levels is not hard. Not hard at all. If people don't work, it's their problem. Much poorer people the world over are harding working than the "poor" in this country, and their governments help them out an incredibly small amount in comparison to ours.

And nice assumptions you've made there; like it.

Reply 37

billydisco

ok so we've said

its not fair that they dont pass the 11+ as often as *others*

its not fair they dont achieve as many AAA sets of grades as *others*

whats next- its not fair they dont get the top jobs.... like *others*

this could go on and on

life isnt fair. to be perfectly frank and honest its not too hard to get average GCSE's and A Levels, not go to uni and still end up on 25-30k when you're 30 years old- a comfortable salary.

Reply 38

Howard

love2learn7

Is it?

Reply 39

Thud

ForeverIsMyName

So what? I was speaking about his attitude, not his education. He started his business at age 15 with practically no money whatsoever, and in this lies the cure for the problem.

Why not?

So what? The solution lies in attitude because a lack of optimistic, self-improving attitude is what causes the problem - Getting 3 a levels is not hard. Not hard at all. If people don't work, it's their problem. Much poorer people the world over are harding working than the "poor" in this country, and their governments help them out an incredibly small amount in comparison to ours.

And nice assumptions you've made there; like it.

see Kinnock speech in my edit.

This is like arguing with ****ing dogmatic morons. do you actually read what i write or just guess where to insert an /quote and make the same points over and over again?

first off you're arguing that kids from deprived backgrounds can do just as well as those who aren't.

your "proof" for this is Branson who went to a ****ing private school.

and you think this follows?! your stupidity here is truly remarkable.

secondly, 3 a levels isn't particularly hard no, i've already given you that, considering an E is a pass.

but, let's take a really really really really simple simile in the hope that you might just understand:

walking 100m isn't hard.

ok. still following fimn?

but, let's now say "Karl" and "Milton" both have to walk this 100m.

Karl our equivalent of being from a poor family, his family have never walked this 100m. Milton's family have been doing it for years, he's the equivalent of earlier mentioned Perkins.

so the contest starts. on the way Milton has his dad telling him how he completed the 100m, he has his teachers telling him the sun shines out his ass, he's had years of training, he's wearing decent trainers so no problem there either and the track has a soft red carpet.

Karl's parents haven't done it before so don't quite really encourage him, his teachers tell him he's going to fail, he's never had any practise at this it's all a brand new experience, he's got delapidated sandles on his feet and the track is made of stinging nettles.

Still following fimn?
of course, it's entirely possible that Karl can finish, it just takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears, it's a hell of a lot harder and it's a hell of a lot more likely that he won't do it, whilst Milton walks the course easy peasy. Even if both are of equal size, weight, intelligence, motivation, etc there are still a massive massive hurdles in Karl's way.

do you understand yet fimn?