64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote

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Reply 120

gladders

Original post by Ned Stark

But leaving the EU doesn't mean we're not European. Europe was around long before the Fourth Reich that is the EU

'Fourth Reich'? Good grief.

Reply 121

LostInPanda

My best friend is far right and I'm far left. Hes been trying to persuade me to vote out for months now, and he finally succeeded by sending me an article on why Socialists should vote leave. I don't want to leave because of 'British Pride,' nor am I at all patriotic. Even if you're not Socialist, there are some really interesting points made.

I hate that I'm lumped in with the British Nationalists, and I'm actually terrified of giving the Tories more power over our country. But its not going to be all good or all bad one way or the other, and, in my opinion, more good will come out of leaving than staying.

Reply 122

dannyscott7

Original post by gladders

Yes, of course. It's not possible for anyone on the Remain side to be a freethinking person who has come to a different conclusion from you. They're all mindless, gormless non-persons. :rolleyes:

The quality of debate is depressing.

We have that.

Either spending it on the same stuff and in the same way, or, as is possible, the Tories giving it to the rich as tax cuts.

We already have control of our borders - did you notice the vote the other night on admitting 3,000 refugee children?

a) the NFU has come out in favour of Remain (but of course, they're all mindless, right?)

b) the fishing industry is doing fine, thanks, and what will kill it forever is overfishing, which the CFP is designed to combat (it's not necessarily doing a great job, but it's inherently a field in which international co-operation and enforcement is key)

c) Why in the name of Jimmy Smits do we want to revive a dying smokestack industry? Steel was in decline before we joined the EU, and would be in the exact same position it is now if we had never joined.

Terrible, isn't it? What's your thoughts on the House of Lords? Or the fact that Cabinet meetings are confidential? Or the monarchy?

Seriously, have you ever read a single piece of factual information about the EU? Have you ever watched a European Parliament debate?

Are you being paid to write this? Thank god I'm no longer a student. Would drive me insane.

You seem to happy to have your country conquered? Very bizarre. Our government are incompetent too yes but you would rather have random bureaucrats devise up your laws would you.

A lot of institutions have come out in favor of remain. I wonder if money was involved? For example the BBC would enjoy less money (from the EU, ironically our own money given back to us after they have spent some of it) if we left.

We control our own borders HAHAHAHAH. Yes I read about the vote. I'm talking about immigration never seen before in this history of this country which is on the path to destroying us economically and culturally, but I know this doesn't bother you. How many people can the welfare state support? Your answer: UNLIMITED. No, there will be an inevitable and very very ugly collapse (which is the plan anyway).

All government is secret about their intentions but I'd rather be able to vote knowing that it will enable the MP's of my country to actual be able to change things if necessary and not have any control over anything meaningful because we are actually ruled by another entity. Your going to be hard to convince I guess you will wake up once the country collapses / goes into civil war.

Reply 123

Betelgeuse-

Original post by gladders

Yes, of course. It's not possible for anyone on the Remain side to be a freethinking person who has come to a different conclusion from you. They're all mindless, gormless non-persons. :rolleyes:

The quality of debate is depressing.

We have that.

Either spending it on the same stuff and in the same way, or, as is possible, the Tories giving it to the rich as tax cuts.

I mean you said you were a rational person above and then post this. Ok how do you know the EU wont give huge tax breaks to the rich?

Did you know that EU civil servants whom on average earn £78,500 a year pay just 16% tax? Of course you didn't, you seem to see the EU as some awesome liberal nice progressive nice guys who are like a super charity of equality, bastions of progression. They are just other humans, power and money hungry pigs suckling of the majorities teets (Of which Britiain is one of the largest)

Anyway, if the EU are better than us at spending our £350 million a week cos the tories would just give it to their rich buddies, why are Cameron and Osbourne desperate to leave? (Hint super cushy 200k a year job at the EU for them)

10% of the EU's 5000 workers earn more than David Cameron

But back to how rational you are. You can vote to get rid of Cameron in a few years... If you dont like a policy of the EU (Maybe next year, maybe in 5 years, maybe 20!?) its tough ... you have NO VOICE

Reply 124

Rorschach II

Original post by elen90

I very deliberately did not mention Brexit supporters, because as much as I disagree with you and as disappointed as I am in the campaign for failing to provide legitimate reasoning for a Brexit, I find that there's nothing more shameful than an apathetic person.

But hey, if you want to take that route, screw you too.

Ffs it was a joke. -.-

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 125

Bang Outta Order

"One of the EU’s founding principles is the free movement of people (along with the free movement of goods, services and money).

Because of this, the UK has no control over immigration from other EU member states.

Brexiters often cite health and benefits tourism from other EU citizens – where people visit or migrate to the UK because of what they perceive as a more generous welfare system, or the NHS.

Cameron has secured a ‘brake’ period of seven years on EU migrants claiming benefits."

Literally the ONLY reason this brexit thing has ever come up
I'm not with the racist motives but I do see the benefits of voting to leave

Reply 126

Retired_Messiah

Original post by dannyscott7

Fair enough.

1. Freedom to create our own trade laws as an independent nation and not rely on the EU.
2. We can spend £350 million a week on our own country (and try to help our own people, NHS, poverty etc) instead of giving it away to the EU.
3. Better control our borders and have a more reasonable level of immigration
4. Refocus on our own industries that are being negatively effected by EU policies (farming, fishing, steel etc)

There are more. I'd rather be voting for people that sit in our parliament and make our laws then have laws being made in dark rooms over in Brussels by people whom we have never ever had the chance to vote for. It's outrageous that people want to continue this relationship but I guess they are only thinking what they are told to think (mainly) most people don't care about politics and are easily persuaded.

These are all arguments I've been given before.

For the first one, as far as I'm aware we trade with the USA and China anyway, which are the only places outside of Europe actually worth anything. By messing about with our EU trade we gain what exactly?

Number 2, our government managed to spend £9 million just on bloody leaflets a bit ago, is that saved money really gonna go anywhere useful? According to a google search I just did the government already borrows just over £1.3 billion a week, that saved EU money is barely gonna cut into that so idk where we're getting this excess surplus of cash to spent from.

3 is rather subjective and depends what type of immigration you mean I suppose.

As for 4, my understanding was that the steel industry going tits up was mostly due to very cheap steel imports from China, which has very little relevance to the EU. Any fishing laws I believe were to prevent overfishing, would would kill that sector an awful lot quicker. I don't know much about EU farming laws tbh, but I'd have thought if they were a massive issue I'd have known about it given that my father works in that sector. Instead the only massive problem I know of is milk price, which is again irrelevant to the EU (NFU links it to supermarket price wars or some such like)

It's interesting to see that a lot of people didn't like any laws our government made or stuff our government did, but then suddenly decided they were okay with the government doing whatever they like once this whole EU thing got going.

Basically all you've done is allow me to explain why brexit failed to sway me at all in the past, so um... thanks for that mate?

Reply 127

elen90

Original post by XcitingStuart

Ffs it was a joke. -.-

Posted from TSR Mobile

'Course.

Reply 128

gladders

Original post by Betelgeuse-

I mean you said you were a rational person above and then post this.

And I thought you were, until you started posting garbage like below. :frown:

Ok how do you know the EU wont give huge tax breaks to the rich?

They aren't right now, as the EU has no taxation powers, except the power to tax its own direct staff. But that £350m (actually much less than that), is generally spent by the Commission to fulfill its charges set out in the Treaties.

Did you know that EU civil servants whom on average earn £78,500 a year pay just 16% tax? Of course you didn't,

I did not, because...it's not true, I'm afraid. Some pay 8%. Some pay 45%. Because they have a progressive taxation system for their employees. This is wholly unremarkable, and in line with taxation schemes in the UK.

you seem to see the EU as some awesome liberal nice progressive nice guys who are like a super charity of equality, bastions of progression. They are just other humans, power and money hungry pigs suckling of the majorities teets (Of which Britiain is one of the largest)

Don't put words in my mouth.

Anyway, if the EU are better than us at spending our £350 million a week cos the tories would just give it to their rich buddies, why are Cameron and Osbourne desperate to leave?

I dunno, maybe Cameron and Osborne, as much as I dislike them, slightly more intelligent than the average Brexiter?

(Hint super cushy 200k a year job at the EU for them)

Do you have evidence that Cameron and Osborne are awaiting EU jobs? What ones, specifically? And what makes them cushy? Surely a Directorship in the City would be even better?

This accusation is thrown out lazily by eurosceptics. It's generally baseless.

10% of the EU's 5000 workers earn more than David Cameron

I'm shocked. There's none of that in the UK.

But back to how rational you are. You can vote to get rid of Cameron in a few years... If you dont like a policy of the EU (Maybe next year, maybe in 5 years, maybe 20!?) its tough ... you have NO VOICE

Uh, yes I do. I pay attention, see what the Parliament is doing, write to my MEP, I write to my MP, I write to the Government and I write to the EU committees in both Houses, which are quite powerful.

I have about as much a voice as I do when speaking to the Government here.

Reply 129

gladders

Original post by dannyscott7

Are you being paid to write this? Thank god I'm no longer a student. Would drive me insane.

Yes, I am being paid for this.

On Thursdays though, I have a second job proving the moon landings were fake.

You seem to happy to have your country conquered? Very bizarre.

Conquered? How? Our country is still free to do what it likes - it's having a referendum which demonstrates that right now. If the people vote to leave, we leave; if the people vote to stay, that's not conquest.

Our government are incompetent too yes but you would rather have random bureaucrats devise up your laws would you.

I am happy for the EU to operate in the fields of policy that have been assigned to it, for the greater common weal, as it helps the Single Market to function and enrich this country, as well as Europe.

A lot of institutions have come out in favor of remain. I wonder if money was involved? For example the BBC would enjoy less money (from the EU, ironically our own money given back to us after they have spent some of it) if we left.

Without any evidence, you're just wasting air. I could be just as lazy and say all Brexiters are in the pay of...I dunno, Mr Wetherspoon. It would be dumb to say, because saying things like that is dumb.

We control our own borders HAHAHAHAH. Yes I read about the vote. I'm talking about immigration never seen before in this history of this country which is on the path to destroying us economically and culturally, but I know this doesn't bother you. How many people can the welfare state support? Your answer: UNLIMITED. No, there will be an inevitable and very very ugly collapse (which is the plan anyway).

Don't put words in my mouth. And what plan? What secret information do you know about?

All government is secret about their intentions but I'd rather be able to vote knowing that it will enable the MP's of my country to actual be able to change things if necessary and not have any control over anything meaningful because we are actually ruled by another entity. Your going to be hard to convince I guess you will wake up once the country collapses / goes into civil war.

We aren't rule by another entity. The UK Parliament remains sovereign entirely, and has control over nearly every important field of public policy. There are some which it chooses to let the EU handle as it helps the Single Market, and enrich this country. It continues to have a considerable steer over EU-level policymaking, too, thanks to Westminster's committee structure.

But yeah, sure, whatever, we're all being taken over by aliens. Cool.

Reply 130

username1204031

Original post by dannyscott7

You seem to happy to have your country conquered? Very bizarre. Our government are incompetent too yes but you would rather have random bureaucrats devise up your laws would you.

You seem to happy to have your country conquered?

conquered

Christ almighty, the out voters are getting more and more melodramatic as they get closer to losing the referendum.

Reply 131

Betelgeuse-

Original post by gladders

And I thought you were, until you started posting garbage like below. :frown:

Cmon you cant point to the current governments policies and say its better that the EU has control.

Original post by gladders

"No taxation powers except the power to tax its own direct staff"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

Dont worry vapers, the EU arent really planning on making your vaping as expensive as Tobacco (The price difference for an average vaper will be about £5 a day)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/02/e-cigarettes-raised-by-brexit-campaign-with-eu-taxes-set-to-be-raised

Yes women and 300,000 who signed the tampon tax petition, it was just a figment of your imagination that the EU reluctantly abolished it. Call me cynical but it would not have happened without the looming referendum

Will the Eu's ability to influence and control tax remain the same as it is now?
Answer we don't know.

Original post by gladders

Not really.. take a look

http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/should-we-feel-sorry-for-underpaid-eu.html

Original post by gladders

I dunno, maybe Cameron and Osborne, as much as I dislike them, slightly more intelligent than the average Brexiter?

Its not their intelligence i doubt but yeah im sure thats it

Original post by gladders

Do you have evidence that Cameron and Osborne are awaiting EU jobs? What ones, specifically? And what makes them cushy? Surely a Directorship in the City would be even better?

No I have no evidence but i can think of a few reasons why they would reason number 1 being they are cushy. Suckling off the teet of plebs. Monstrous salary, incredible pension and unbelievable allowances and lets not forget the posh swanky conferances at Europes finest 5* resorts. Take a look at just how great the EU package is in the EU's own words

-Salary
"Basic monthly Commission salaries range from around €2,300 per month for a newly recruited AST/SC 1 official to around €16,000 per month for a top level AD 16 official with over 4 years of seniority.

The basic monthly salary is just the starting point. To know how much you will get, you then have to add the allowances you may be entitled to

If you have left your home country to come and work for the European Commission, you are entitled to an expatriation allowance equivalent to 16% of your basic salary.

Some family-related allowances are available to Commission officials according to their family situation. These include a household allowance, a dependant child allowance, an educational allowance and a pre-school allowance. These allowances can help to cover the costs of looking after a family while working for an international organisation."

Up to 70% of your salary as pension retiring at 65.

Who wouldnt want to work for the EU?

http://ec.europa.eu/civil_service/job/official/index_en.htm

Original post by gladders

I'm shocked. There's none of that in the UK.

Posting a link to high end civil servant jobs of which most appear to pay around 60k and only one I can see above the PM's salary isnt really aiding your point!

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 132

gladders

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Cmon you cant point to the current governments policies and say its better that the EU has control.

That's not what I'm saying, and it's a shame you have missed the point.

"No taxation powers except the power to tax its own direct staff"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

A tax set by Member States according to harmonisation rules set and agreed by themselves.

Dont worry vapers, the EU arent really planning on making your vaping as expensive as Tobacco (The price difference for an average smoker will be about £4 a day)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/02/e-cigarettes-raised-by-brexit-campaign-with-eu-taxes-set-to-be-raised

Will the Eu's ability to influence and control tax remain the same as it is now?
Answer we don't know.

Such a levy is agreed by Member States at the EU level through rules set and agreed by themselves. The present UK Government has a record of restricting the prevalence of tobacco and vapers, and it's highly likely they'd be doing the same if we weren't in the EU.

Not really.. take a look

http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/should-we-feel-sorry-for-underpaid-eu.html

Well, apparently exempting international institutions from tax is a long-standing international principle.

http://www.unionsyndicale.eu/index.php/en/services/taxation/doc_download/415-eu-officials-and-belgian-taxes-summary-ans-faqs

ah, I see. It's this swivel-eyed paranoia that anyone who contradicts you *must* be in someone's pocket. Gotcha.

Take a look at just how great the EU package is in the EU's own words

-Salary
"Basic monthly Commission salaries range from around €2,300 per month for a newly recruited AST/SC 1 official to around €16,000 per month for a top level AD 16 official with over 4 years of seniority.

The basic monthly salary is just the starting point. To know how much you will get, you then have to add the allowances you may be entitled to

I don't think arguing about a perceived generosity of being a senior member of the EU civil service is a particularly strong argument for Brexit, particularly as there are tons of examples of how EU membership makes all of us richer.

If you have left your home country to come and work for the European Commission, you are entitled to an expatriation allowance equivalent to 16% of your basic salary.

Reasonable, given the vast geographic size of the EU.

Some family-related allowances are available to Commission officials according to their family situation. These include a household allowance, a dependant child allowance, an educational allowance and a pre-school allowance. These allowances can help to cover the costs of looking after a family while working for an international organisation."

Up to 70% of your salary as pension retiring at 65.

Who wouldnt want to work for the EU?

http://ec.europa.eu/civil_service/job/official/index_en.htm

Well, why don't you?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 133

pezisland37

Original post by Omen96

To be honest, this is a student and left wing forum, and the left/liberal type voter loves the EU and everything it stands for. It's normal for remain to be way ahead

I completely agree with this, I am a left/liberal voter who HATES the EU though mainly due to the fact that the area I live in has experienced mass migration from Roma communities in Eastern Europe

Reply 134

Omen96

Original post by samiln

I completely agree with this, I am a left/liberal voter who HATES the EU though mainly due to the fact that the area I live in has experienced mass migration from Roma communities in Eastern Europe

I highly doubt a left/liberal voter would have that opinion. To be liberal/left is to support uncontrolled mass migration and no borders

Reply 135

Doones

Current poll standing of those who have voted Remain or Leave*:

Remain: 774 = 72%
Leave : 301 = 28%
-----------------
Total: 1,075

*excludes "don't know" and "won't vote".

Reply 136

gladders

Original post by Omen96

I highly doubt a left/liberal voter would have that opinion. To be liberal/left is to support uncontrolled mass migration and no borders

So would it therefore be a fair thing to say that to be right/conservative is to hate freedom and to support mass murder of foreigners?

Of course I wouldn't, because both statements are utterly moronic.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 137

Davij038

Anyone else find it amusing that Norway the bête noire of the right wing has suddenly become a utopia for them?

Dan Hannan basically admitted that we would have less say, things wouldn't really change but we'd be 'happier' (nothing to do with any of their social policies or any left wing crap) of we got the Norwegian option