Good enough for Stanford/Ivies? + other queries

sure...

Original post by Princepieman

I'm talking about Stanford.. It's quite clear what the admit stats are for MIT.

Reply 41

Original post by CrimsonDucati

???

"131 admitted out of 3,971"
hence the rate of 3.3%
overall admit rate is 8%... This includes international applicants

from there, we do simple math
8-3.33= 4.7
so 4.7% lower than the overall admit rate, which includes internationals

To be more accurate, the admit rate between domestic and international students is even GREATER, but I made it simple for you

You can't apply the same arithmetic subtraction to Stanford.

You might be able to use a %age ratio (i.e MIT 3.33 / 8 * 100 = 42%) so the Stanford international rate could be 42% of the overall rate (4.69 x 42% = 1.95), but even that is a big and unsubstantiated assumption.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 42

Student403

19

Original post by jneill

You can't apply the same arithmetic subtraction to Stanford.

You might be able to use a %age ratio (i.e 3.33 / 8 * 100 = 42%) so the Stanford international rate could be 42% of the overall rate (4.69 x 42% = 1.95), but even that is a big and unsubstantiated assumption.

PRSOM

Reply 43

Original post by CrimsonDucati

Stanford's admission rate this year is 4.69%, less than Harvard

The admission rate for internationals is around.02 %

That's not a typo... The admission rate at Stanford for international applicants is well below 1%

So you've gone from 0.02%, to 0.2%, to "well below 1%", to "0.5% to 1%", to (possibly) 2%.

You're correct, it's not a typo. It's plain wrong.

Reply 44

Original post by jneill

You can't apply the same arithmetic subtraction to Stanford.

You might be able to use a %age ratio (i.e MIT 3.33 / 8 * 100 = 42%) so the Stanford international rate could be 42% of the overall rate (4.69 x 42% = 1.95), but even that is a big and unsubstantiated assumption.

you can't use the same ratio.. I agreeBut it's a fact that the international rate for every elite American university is lower than it's overall rate... I don't think you're going to disagree on thisStanford receives more applications than MIT and has a lower admit rate, so we can make a reasonable assumption...I said it's not an exact science, as Stanford does not release the exact numbers.. MIT is one of the only elite universities that releases such precise infoThe number is very very very low... That's my point

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 45

username738914

Original post by CrimsonDucati

sure...

Look dude:

The average % make up of the class at Stanford is as follows:
Foreign: 8.7%
Californian: 36%
US other: 55%
Source: http://facts.stanford.edu/academics/undergraduate-profile

Right away you can see that the proportion of applicants from Cali is already disproportionately higher, just by their make up of the class.

Break it down by number admitted:
Total: 2142
Total international (based on the above): ~186

http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/selection/profile.html

Let's plug in your numbers:
You said 0.5% to 1% admit rate for internationals so let's do the maths: 186/.005 = 37200 applicants (a.k.a *******s as the total no. of applicants is 42k)

For 1%: 186/.01 = 18600 (again, *******s, the number of international applicants is nowhere near half the total applicants)

A more reasonable guestimate would be ~4-5%, which yields a proportion of 8-11% of applicants.

So again, you've pulled it out of your bum.

Reply 46

Original post by CrimsonDucati

you can't use the same ratio.. I agree

But it's a fact that the international rate for every elite American university is lower than it's overall rate... I don't think you're going to disagree on this

Stanford receives more applications than MIT and has a lower admit rate, so we can make a reasonable assumption...

I said it's not an exact science, as Stanford does not release the exact numbers.. MIT is one of the only elite universities that releases such precise info

The number is very very very low... That's my point

You didn't use a ratio. You made an arithmetic deduction. Incorrectly.

2.0% is 100 times larger than 0.02%

Reply 47

Original post by jneill

So you've gone from 0.02%, to 0.2%, to "well below 1%", to "0.5% to 1%", to (possibly) 2%.

You're correct, it's not a typo. It's plain wrong.

Nope, not wronghere's another elite university that similar dataUC Berkeley"UC Berkeley’s acceptance rate dropped by about two percentage points from last year’s rate of roughly 17 percent. 18.3 percent of resident students received admission this year, while only 12.9 percent of domestic nonresident students and 7.3 percent of international students were admitted."We could go on and on....It's a reasonable assumption to believe that Stanford's admission rate is 4.5 % lowerEvery elite school that releases actual data shows a similar or greater differenceMaybe Stanford is the sole exceptionMaybe....

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 48

So we should believe the admit rste for internations is greater than it's overall admit rate

Of course this would contradict EVERY elite university that actually releases the data

But like I said...

Maybe

Original post by Princepieman

Look dude:

The average % make up of the class at Stanford is as follows:
Foreign: 8.7%
Californian: 36%
US other: 55%
Source: http://facts.stanford.edu/academics/undergraduate-profile

Right away you can see that the proportion of applicants from Cali is already disproportionately higher, just by their make up of the class.

Break it down by number admitted:
Total: 2142
Total international (based on the above): ~186

http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/selection/profile.html

Let's plug in your numbers:
You said 0.5% to 1% admit rate for internationals so let's do the maths: 186/.005 = 37200 applicants (a.k.a *******s as the total no. of applicants is 42k)

For 1%: 186/.01 = 18600 (again, *******s, the number of international applicants is nowhere near half the total applicants)

A more reasonable guestimate would be ~4-5%, which yields a proportion of 8-11% of applicants.

So again, you've pulled it out of your bum.

Reply 49

username738914

Original post by CrimsonDucati

So we should believe the admit rste for internations is greater than it's overall admit rate

Of course this would contradict EVERY elite university that actually releases the data

But like I said...

Maybe

That happens.. You do know the full acceptance rate is a mix of the higher early acceptance rate and the regular decision acceptance rate right?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 50

Vesniep

15

I want to ask a question about UK and US best universities, perhaps already answered.

I am not British but I'm from the EU . Unis in my country are awful and since I am a good though not perfect student I considered applying to UK and US unis,
I knew I wanted to study Maths-Physics stuff and I looked at SAT and A-level papers which didn't impress me at all tbh and then I came up with the Oxbridge admission papers (MAT,PAT,STEP) and interview videos and I liked them so much especially STEP because they really do measure potential. From the UK unis Oxbridge became my first choice (eventually Cambridge Maths with Physics).
From the other side I was looking at unis such as Harvard, Stanford and MIT which have similar rankings so that I have a second choice , but everything seemed so chaotic to me. I couldn't find a nice bit in the whole process ; there were no admission tests ,I got the impression that interviews are not subject based but I''m not sure about that and they gave me the impression that their criteria are very strange as well (eg they'd prefer a less talented candidate if the other more talented one is arrogant according to his/her teacher) . Their educational system is way too complex for me to understand.
Given that fees and aeroplane tickets are extremely high compared to Oxbridge I totally ignored US unis.

You now say how difficult it is to get into Ivy-stanford-MIT using acceptance rates all of which are less than 5% while Cambridge has 20%....what's going on ?
I applied to Cambridge because it is considered to be the best uni (or at least at top 3) in the world for Maths (QS rankings 2016) . STEP III is a very demanding exam as well, but still getting into Harvard or MIT is 4 to 5 times more unlikely and in the case of an international students 20 times (???) Many students who are applying both to US and UK top unis claim that US unis are much harder to cope with. An IMOer from my country had an unconditional offer from Cambridge Maths and preferred MIT (which is 4th btw) without getting any financial help. I just want a justified opinion explaining the great difference in acceptance rates between Oxbridge and US top unis. I want to know more about US unis because if UK exits EU admission fees will rise dramatically, so I might apply to US unis.

Reply 51

afern

3

I'm just finishing up high school in the US, and I only applied in the UK but all my friends went through the US process so hopefully my answers can help!

1) I can't really help here as I didn't do A-levels, but I can't see that being a problem as the US doesn't have an equivalent system for GCSEs etc.
2) I took the ACT, but the studying is similar: get a practice book that gives you advice for different types of questions and make sure it's got 3+ practice tests in the back.
3) The SAT's actually changed this year (I think you'd be in the first year taking the new one) so it's a lot more similar to the ACT now, but the big difference is that the ACT requires more time management. It's really intensive and fast paced (the SAT isn't slow by any means, but it's more doable if you're a bit slower at answering). The ACT also has a "science" section. I'm putting it in quotes because it's not about actual science, it's really just logical/quantitative reasoning. Also subject tests are probably required, but check their websites (some colleges don't require them if you take the ACTs, but all that would be on their websites).
4) No idea what it's like for international students, but I would imagine it's similar to US ones where the Common App goes live in late August, you apply by October (don't hold me to that, it might be November) for EA/ED schools, and then January for regular decision schools. You hear back by the end of March and make a decision by May 1.
5) Definitely worth it! Ivies/Stanford especially have got good endowments so should have scholarships (again, check their websites for specifics).
6) I didn't apply to both, but my advice from witnessing friends applying in the US is don't put off the Common App. Stanford for example has five or six supplementals along with the core Common App essay, you don't want to put those off to the last minute.

Also, in terms of you being worried about your GCSE grades, US colleges love to see improvement, and it's not like your GCSEs were at all bad!
It's good you've got a lot of extra-curriculars and leadership positions in school, those all look really good on the Common App.

Reply 52

afern

3

Original post by Vesniep

I want to ask a question about UK and US best universities, perhaps already answered.

I am not British but I'm from the EU . Unis in my country are awful and since I am a good though not perfect student I considered applying to UK and US unis,
I knew I wanted to study Maths-Physics stuff and I looked at SAT and A-level papers which didn't impress me at all tbh and then I came up with the Oxbridge admission papers (MAT,PAT,STEP) and interview videos and I liked them so much especially STEP because they really do measure potential. From the UK unis Oxbridge became my first choice (eventually Cambridge Maths with Physics).
From the other side I was looking at unis such as Harvard, Stanford and MIT which have similar rankings so that I have a second choice , but everything seemed so chaotic to me. I couldn't find a nice bit in the whole process ; there were no admission tests ,I got the impression that interviews are not subject based but I''m not sure about that and they gave me the impression that their criteria are very strange as well (eg they'd prefer a less talented candidate if the other more talented one is arrogant according to his/her teacher) . Their educational system is way too complex for me to understand.
Given that fees and aeroplane tickets are extremely high compared to Oxbridge I totally ignored US unis.

You now say how difficult it is to get into Ivy-stanford-MIT using acceptance rates all of which are less than 5% while Cambridge has 20%....what's going on ?
I applied to Cambridge because it is considered to be the best uni (or at least at top 3) in the world for Maths (QS rankings 2016) . STEP III is a very demanding exam as well, but still getting into Harvard or MIT is 4 to 5 times more unlikely and in the case of an international students 20 times (???) Many students who are applying both to US and UK top unis claim that US unis are much harder to cope with. An IMOer from my country had an unconditional offer from Cambridge Maths and preferred MIT (which is 4th btw) without getting any financial help. I just want a justified opinion explaining the great difference in acceptance rates between Oxbridge and US top unis. I want to know more about US unis because if UK exits EU admission fees will rise dramatically, so I might apply to US unis.

Part of the reason is that US colleges work to get their acceptance rates down. We get tons of emails from colleges waiving the application fee, offering scholarships etc. because more applications will mean lower acceptance rates. It's also just because the US is so big that the colleges are getting a ton of applications in the first place, especially if the college has lower tuition for in-state applicants (which all public colleges do, I think some private ones do that too).

Reply 53

username738914

Original post by Vesniep

I want to ask a question about UK and US best universities, perhaps already answered.

I am not British but I'm from the EU . Unis in my country are awful and since I am a good though not perfect student I considered applying to UK and US unis,
I knew I wanted to study Maths-Physics stuff and I looked at SAT and A-level papers which didn't impress me at all tbh and then I came up with the Oxbridge admission papers (MAT,PAT,STEP) and interview videos and I liked them so much especially STEP because they really do measure potential. From the UK unis Oxbridge became my first choice (eventually Cambridge Maths with Physics).
From the other side I was looking at unis such as Harvard, Stanford and MIT which have similar rankings so that I have a second choice , but everything seemed so chaotic to me. I couldn't find a nice bit in the whole process ; there were no admission tests ,I got the impression that interviews are not subject based but I''m not sure about that and they gave me the impression that their criteria are very strange as well (eg they'd prefer a less talented candidate if the other more talented one is arrogant according to his/her teacher) . Their educational system is way too complex for me to understand.
Given that fees and aeroplane tickets are extremely high compared to Oxbridge I totally ignored US unis.

You now say how difficult it is to get into Ivy-stanford-MIT using acceptance rates all of which are less than 5% while Cambridge has 20%....what's going on ?
I applied to Cambridge because it is considered to be the best uni (or at least at top 3) in the world for Maths (QS rankings 2016) . STEP III is a very demanding exam as well, but still getting into Harvard or MIT is 4 to 5 times more unlikely and in the case of an international students 20 times (???) Many students who are applying both to US and UK top unis claim that US unis are much harder to cope with. An IMOer from my country had an unconditional offer from Cambridge Maths and preferred MIT (which is 4th btw) without getting any financial help. I just want a justified opinion explaining the great difference in acceptance rates between Oxbridge and US top unis. I want to know more about US unis because if UK exits EU admission fees will rise dramatically, so I might apply to US unis.

- More people self select in the UK because there are set entry requirements. The US is a free for all as the application process is based on comparisons and not a minimum standard offer
- One can only apply to Oxford or Cambridge and you can only apply to 5 universities here. There are 0 restrictions (except for monetary) like these in the states
- Cambridge give comparatively more offers for Maths because a very large proportion fail to meet the STEP requirements (Note, you get admitted to the university in the US not a course)
- It's a case of broad education with continual testing in the US vs narrow and deep education with a few loaded exams in the UK
- Maths courses at top US unis only start to match Cambridge's in rigour within higher level courses

Those are the cliffnotes.

Posted from TSR Mobile

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 54

Student403

19

Original post by Vesniep

...

It's all down to the applicant pool and selection criteria

When you apply to the UK, you have 5 choices so you must choose wisely. When you apply to the US, there isn't really a limit so you can throw your applications to a much wider field. As such, universities like MIT and Harvard receive more applications from people who do not put as much thought in to their applications. Also, the US is just much bigger than the UK so.. there's that. Because of these reasons, they have to be much more selective in choosing who to admit which is why it is 'harder' to get in to the US universities: not only are grades and academics important, but unlike at Oxbridge, extra curriculars play a huge rule in admission.

Reply 55

Original post by Vesniep

You now say how difficult it is to get into Ivy-stanford-MIT using acceptance rates all of which are less than 5% while Cambridge has 20%....what's going on ?

For one thing, you can't apply to both Cambridge and Oxford. If you could the Oxbridge acceptance rates would pretty much immediately halve.

Reply 56

Student403

19

Original post by jneill

For one thing, you can't apply to both Cambridge and Oxford. If you could the Oxbridge acceptance rates would pretty much immediately halve.

Exactly!
And they'd decrease even further if the 5 uni limit was lifted

Reply 57

Original post by Student403

Exactly!
And they'd decrease even further if the 5 uni limit was lifted

Yup that too. :smile:

Reply 58

Original post by Princepieman

That happens.. You do know the full acceptance rate is a mix of the higher early acceptance rate and the regular decision acceptance rate right?

Posted from TSR Mobile

No, it doesn't happen for elite universities...here are some numbersInternational applicants can now apply early action to MIT, just as any other student.I'm going to assume that MIT received all 3971 international applications as early action, even though it's not true...here are the regular decision numbers...i'm going to include the early action applicants that were deferred to be fair, and like I said before, assume ALL Internationals applied early action and were admitted early action, even though it's not true... I'll even not include the applicants that were put on waitlist and later acceptedNow we both know that most international students applied regular decision, but I'll assume that out of the 16,322 that applied regular action, none were internationals..... If I subtracted international applicants and and international admits from these numbers, the admit rate for domestic students applying regular decision would go upBy assuming that no regular decision applicants were internationals, the admit rate will be as low as possible for regular decision domestic applicantsI'm really interpreting the data in the most generous manner possible16,322 students applied regular action... I'm including deferrals, as if I didn't include deferrals, the admit rate would go up....842 were admitted... not counting the waitlist applicants later acceptedI'll even assume that all 131 internationals were deferred to regular action, and were admitted... And only those 131 admits were deferred... So the regular action rate for internationals is 100% to minimize the rate for domestic students... We assume all the other regular action applicants were domestic.....so 16,192 applicants, and 711 admits for domestic students applying regular actionthat's a admit rate of over 4% for domestic students applying regular action ...IF we assume this crazy scenario I just listed. can't possibly be lower than that...Of course the scenario I just listed did not happen...the truth is that it's significantly higher, likely 6-7% ... very similar to overall admit ratethe international rate for elite universities is never lower than the domestic acceptance %, even if we limit it to regular action, and assume all regular action applicants are domestic

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 59