The Student Room Group

Is the current immigration system racist?

I'm a British-Taiwanese citizen. My fiancé is Indonesian yet has had her visa application for the UK denied despite the fact she is a skilled worker who has worked as an office manager for 5 years, has a degree, has no criminal record, speaks 3 languages and for the past 2 years has been a business partner in a successful a toy shop where she co-leads a team of 5 staff members. She could walk into most jobs in the UK.

Me and my fiancé were looking to come to the UK and start up our own events company yet her visa has been denied.

Now, how can a young, enterprising, well-educated, skilled woman who speaks 3 languages who is going to be an equal partner is a business get her visa denied yet some knuckle-headed Slovakian who can barely spell his own name can just jump on the plane and come to the UK visa free?

It's a system that discriminates skilled Asian and African workers in favour of unskilled, white Europeans solely on the basis of where they are from.

It's the main reason I'm voting Out because hopefully once we're away from the EU and their baffling system of allowing white people visa free access to every country whilst closing the door to better skilled and better educated Asians then hopefully us Asians will be given equal opportunity to the white people in Europe.

The current system is frankly disgusting and I'm surprised in 2016 so many people are OK with EU nations discriminating against Asians and Africans in favour of white Europeans.

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Original post by TaipeiGhost
I'm a British-Taiwanese citizen. My fiancé is Indonesian yet has had her visa application for the UK denied despite the fact she is a skilled worker who has worked as an office manager for 5 years, has a degree, has no criminal record, speaks 3 languages and for the past 2 years has been a business partner in a successful a toy shop where she co-leads a team of 5 staff members. She could walk into most jobs in the UK.

Me and my fiancé were looking to come to the UK and start up our own events company yet her visa has been denied.

Now, how can a young, enterprising, well-educated, skilled woman who speaks 3 languages who is going to be an equal partner is a business get her visa denied yet some knuckle-headed Slovakian who can barely spell his own name can just jump on the plane and come to the UK visa free?

It's a system that discriminates skilled Asian and African workers in favour of unskilled, white Europeans solely on the basis of where they are from.

It's the main reason I'm voting Out because hopefully once we're away from the EU and their baffling system of allowing white people visa free access to every country whilst closing the door to better skilled and better educated Asians then hopefully us Asians will be given equal opportunity to the white people in Europe.

The current system is frankly disgusting and I'm surprised in 2016 so many people are OK with EU nations discriminating against Asians and Africans in favour of white Europeans.


Having a system that favours one for the other is naturally going to be discriminatory.
Original post by TaipeiGhost

The current system is frankly disgusting and I'm surprised in 2016 so many people are OK with EU nations discriminating against Asians and Africans in favour of white Europeans.


Agreed. But I am sure you are aware of the current immigration hot potato. We can't control EU immigration but we can control external immigration - well we say we can.

This is the consequence sadly. Good luck with whatever the future holds.
Agree 100%

A big problem with the EU is that to slightly ballance the books as such, the goverment has to place strict rules on many non-eu states to try and limmit the number.

I am english, and my wife is chinese - she is similar to your partner, highly skilled, experianced, masters degree etc, no history at all of ever using benifits. But its really hard to get her a permanent visa, even though we are married.

Its really tempting me to vote out, because if we as a country had a system where all people from other countries (except genuine cases of migrants etc) have to go through the same system of merit based selection (see new zealand etc), then my wife would get a visa no problem.

As an english citizen who lives in china now, our choices are litterally the following:

Save 62,500 pounds, and keep it untouched in a bank account for 6 months, then apply.
Or
I come to england, work for 6 months, then apply for 2 months, all without my wife. Meaning we must spend 8+ months apart.

Whilst yes, someone from a different nationality can just walk right in.

---

Serriously, if we are genuinly concerned about the future of our country, then we need to consider our immigration policy in a serrious and non-racially charged way.

We must look at moving to a system where we have people coming to england on thee basis of them being:

1 - a humanitarian case.
2 - a person who would benifit the UK.
3 - a person coming with dirrect family links (strict rules)

Anything beyond the two is surplus.

Race should have no impact, african, asian, america, european.. it does not matter.

Religion should have no impact, nor should their culture of origin.

-- as long as a person fits the requirements they are allowed to live here, under the probationary terms for the first few years.

If they break the probationary terms, they are sent back.
If they keep to them, they are given a full visa.

Simple.

Those who say that immigration has done lots of good for this country are right.. it has helped us hugely in many areas. But its not perfect, and just because it has been good in the past, does not make it immune to criticism, or shelter it from an effort to make it even better.

We can get to a system where immigration works for our country and the people entering in, in a much much better way then it does now, by accepting the reality that immigration is part of modern western society, but no accepting that in its current state it cant be improved, and by moving past the simple ideas from both sides of less or more = right or wrong.
Original post by TaipeiGhost
I'm a British-Taiwanese citizen. My fiancé is Indonesian yet has had her visa application for the UK denied despite the fact she is a skilled worker who has worked as an office manager for 5 years, has a degree, has no criminal record, speaks 3 languages and for the past 2 years has been a business partner in a successful a toy shop where she co-leads a team of 5 staff members. She could walk into most jobs in the UK.

Me and my fiancé were looking to come to the UK and start up our own events company yet her visa has been denied.

Now, how can a young, enterprising, well-educated, skilled woman who speaks 3 languages who is going to be an equal partner is a business get her visa denied yet some knuckle-headed Slovakian who can barely spell his own name can just jump on the plane and come to the UK visa free?

It's a system that discriminates skilled Asian and African workers in favour of unskilled, white Europeans solely on the basis of where they are from.

It's the main reason I'm voting Out because hopefully once we're away from the EU and their baffling system of allowing white people visa free access to every country whilst closing the door to better skilled and better educated Asians then hopefully us Asians will be given equal opportunity to the white people in Europe.

The current system is frankly disgusting and I'm surprised in 2016 so many people are OK with EU nations discriminating against Asians and Africans in favour of white Europeans.


No immigration system is perfect. You dont say which visa she was applying for and why she was rejected. The government make the rules, just like the Taiwanese authorities make theirs.

Immigration is a hot topic in the UK and non EU immgration is one of the few arears the UK can control. If your fiance isnt on a list of prescribed professions that the country needs, such as engineers software specialists, medical practitioners, then she has to apply for one of the 20,700 visas pa under the tier 2 skilled migrants criteria. or a Tier 1 Entrepeneurs visa. you dont say why you were rejected but these are points based systems. Wouldnt you have been better getting her over either on a student visa or marrying her?

Do I think the current system is disgusting? No. All countries have immigration controls. The primary duty of the overnment is to act in the best interests of the existing population. Being part of the EU has been one of those. There will still be visa control whether we are in or out. Its highly unlikely the immigration system will change with the EU as access to the single market requires free movement of people. I dont think it will improve your position.
Original post by 999tigger
No immigration system is perfect. You dont say which visa she was applying for and why she was rejected. The government make the rules, just like the Taiwanese authorities make theirs.

Immigration is a hot topic in the UK and non EU immgration is one of the few arears the UK can control. If your fiance isnt on a list of prescribed professions that the country needs, such as engineers software specialists, medical practitioners, then she has to apply for one of the 20,700 visas pa under the tier 2 skilled migrants criteria. or a Tier 1 Entrepeneurs visa. you dont say why you were rejected but these are points based systems. Wouldnt you have been better getting her over either on a student visa or marrying her?

Do I think the current system is disgusting? No. All countries have immigration controls. The primary duty of the overnment is to act in the best interests of the existing population. Being part of the EU has been one of those. There will still be visa control whether we are in or out. Its highly unlikely the immigration system will change with the EU as access to the single market requires free movement of people. I dont think it will improve your position.


Marrying wont change the requirements really - it would make it easier for her to apply using him as proof of financial Independence, but marriage is not a strict requirement to do that, so if they could have, I imagine they already would have. Student visas are also not a great option for many these days, due to the removal of the 2 year period after studies finish, and also the high tuition fees, and the requirment of proof of financial indipendance whilst studying - they are a lot less expensive then the savings required for a family visa, but still out of the reach of many.

I understand your approach, looking at it from a practical level, but from someone who is in a similar position to the OP, it is very frustrating when you see people enter the UK who will not benefit the country at all, and instead actively harm it - yet you have a partner who could add to the country, and be a great and integrated citizen.

Its just a reality of non-eu immigration though. Me and my wife are over half way towards saving for the financial requirement, and will move to England fully again in 2017.. but many are not as luck as us, and do not have high enough incomes to ever manage the visa process without spending an indefinite period apart.

My cousin is like this, she moved to japan temporarily, fell in love with a Japanese man, a university professor. But they have resigned to never moving back to England. They would like to, but they know that on both their small wages, it will take years and years to save towards the requirement, and even if she (English citizen) moved back to England and got a job, her wage would likely not be high enough to support the financial requirement. So for them, there is just no other option but to stay in japan.

The Relationship between EU immigration and non-EU immigration is unlikely to change any time soon. Even if we do leave the EU. But removing practicalities out of the equation, currently we have an immigration system that does not work in an optimal fashion. It should be our governments job to push towards removing the reasons why the current system does not work as well as it should, and create a system which functions in the best interests for the country.

Instead right now, compared to other countries systems, ours feels botched and half arsed, with far to many compromises being made for systems out of our control to change, and far to many regulations getting in the way of cases where a small amount of human intervention could lead to positive immigration.

Recently when me and my wife were considering moving to New Zealand or Australia, I was really impressed with their immigration system and how they approached people who wanted to move to their country. Compared to the awful communication, horrible website, mass of information with little aid, and an over-reliance on expensive (often extortionate) foreign agencies to manage immigration applications, that you get with UK immigration.. It was actually quite nice to be considering living there.
Original post by TaipeiGhost
It's a system that discriminates skilled Asian and African workers in favour of unskilled, white Europeans solely on the basis of where they are from.

It's the main reason I'm voting Out because hopefully once we're away from the EU and their baffling system of allowing white people visa free access to every country whilst closing the door to better skilled and better educated Asians then hopefully us Asians will be given equal opportunity to the white people in Europe.

The current system is frankly disgusting and I'm surprised in 2016 so many people are OK with EU nations discriminating against Asians and Africans in favour of white Europeans.


What has this got to do with white Europeans? There are Europeans who are not white who are also able to move to the UK without a visa.

It's technically discrimination though on the grounds of nationality, not colour or ethnic origin. It's not a racist policy.

Why had your fiance's visa application been denied?

What makes you think that her application would magically become accepted if we were to leave the EU? The same rules would apply, and if you hadn't noticed it's not like the Government is actively trying to lower the number of visas granted.
If she is as able as you claim her to be and she really could walk into most British jobs, then why not get a company to sponsor her visa?
Personally, I feel the current immigration system isn't sustainable and will just actually cause more harm than good to the economy in the not-too-distant future.

Before people shoot me down, I'm not against all immigration. I'm against high levels of immigration.
Original post by SHallowvale

It's technically discrimination though on the grounds of nationality, not colour or ethnic origin. It's not a racist policy.


So you wouldn't consider a ban on Nigerian immigrants to be racist?
Original post by sweeneyrod
So you wouldn't consider a ban on Nigerian immigrants to be racist?


Not necessarily. What would the reasons be for the ban?

Also what relevance do bans on immigration from a specific country have to this thread?
Original post by SHallowvale
Not necessarily. What would the reasons be for the ban?

Also what relevance do bans on immigration from a specific country have to this thread?


Most EU citizens are white, so giving them special privileges in immigration means (statistically) giving white people an advantage, which is often viewed as racist (for instance, the American criminal justice system is called racist for arresting a disproportionate amount of black people, so white people have a statistical advantage there). Banning immigration from Nigeria would do the same thing (which is why some people might call it racist), so you if you regard that as racist then you should logically view pro-EU immigration policy in the same way. If you don't, then I applaud your consistency (and restraint in avoiding calling Trump racist for not wanting Mexican immigrants).
Reply 12
The fact is that UK is too full of people and immigrants, so they don't want more people to come in. Simply because English is the most common foreign language, when thinking of studying abroad or living abroad, most people think of UK, US, Canada, Australia....

Ofc everyone has their own preferences and I don't judge ppl because of that. But I remember UK is trying to reduce the immigration level, especially under the control of the Conservative. I remember reading an article that the head of the Immigration department of Home Office talked about the number of people coming into UK in 2015-2016 and said very disappointed. For foreign/non-EU students like me, we must pay 300-more than 400 pounds for a student visa application, including the probability of being refused/denied, also the tuition fee we are charged is 1.5-3 times higher than UK/EU students, no support from UK government, no public funds, no student loans like UK students. And we are given 2-4 months to stay after the end date of the course, no more. I understand this problem of Britain, even in case of the leaders are considered rich wealthy white British class atm.

But think, there are tons of other countries which are opening their gates for foreign people: Japan, Germany, South Africa...they give you years to stay after study, just about the language barrier as official language is not English (except South Africa)...Chances and opportunities are plenty.I don't say all, but why must we try our best to live or stay in a country where we don't feel being respected, appreciated and comfortable or you feel that sth is unfair for you?
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 13
no system is perfect
Original post by sweeneyrod
Most EU citizens are white, so giving them special privileges in immigration means (statistically) giving white people an advantage, which is often viewed as racist (for instance, the American criminal justice system is called racist for arresting a disproportionate amount of black people, so white people have a statistical advantage there). Banning immigration from Nigeria would do the same thing (which is why some people might call it racist), so you if you regard that as racist then you should logically view pro-EU immigration policy in the same way. If you don't, then I applaud your consistency (and restraint in avoiding calling Trump racist for not wanting Mexican immigrants).


They are not given special privileges because they are white though. All Europeans are given that privilege regardless of their colour.

More white people benefiting from it than non-white people doesn't make it racist, nor does it matter that some people think that this makes it racist. It doesn't.

Who said anything about Trump?
Original post by TaipeiGhost
I'm a British-Taiwanese citizen. My fiancé is Indonesian yet has had her visa application for the UK denied despite the fact she is a skilled worker who has worked as an office manager for 5 years, has a degree, has no criminal record, speaks 3 languages and for the past 2 years has been a business partner in a successful a toy shop where she co-leads a team of 5 staff members. She could walk into most jobs in the UK.

Me and my fiancé were looking to come to the UK and start up our own events company yet her visa has been denied.

Now, how can a young, enterprising, well-educated, skilled woman who speaks 3 languages who is going to be an equal partner is a business get her visa denied yet some knuckle-headed Slovakian who can barely spell his own name can just jump on the plane and come to the UK visa free?

It's a system that discriminates skilled Asian and African workers in favour of unskilled, white Europeans solely on the basis of where they are from.

It's the main reason I'm voting Out because hopefully once we're away from the EU and their baffling system of allowing white people visa free access to every country whilst closing the door to better skilled and better educated Asians then hopefully us Asians will be given equal opportunity to the white people in Europe.

The current system is frankly disgusting and I'm surprised in 2016 so many people are OK with EU nations discriminating against Asians and Africans in favour of white Europeans.


Yes. This is why I am voting out of the EU. I would rather have skilled individuals like your fiancé than white people from the EU who are bringing nothing to our country.

Original post by SHallowvale
They are not given special privileges because they are white though. All Europeans are given that privilege regardless of their colour.

More white people benefiting from it than non-white people doesn't make it racist, nor does it matter that some people think that this makes it racist. It doesn't.


Oh come on. Yes, you're right that we say 'EU' citizens and not 'white' citizens. But a lot of countries in the EU home white citizens. I think it is quite right to question why we are so keen to be part of a union of mostly white countries and make it harder for individuals of other countries who are less likely to be white to come here. This is only one part of the union but I feel it is a very important one.
Original post by infairverona
Oh come on. Yes, you're right that we say 'EU' citizens and not 'white' citizens. But a lot of countries in the EU home white citizens. I think it is quite right to question why we are so keen to be part of a union of mostly white countries and make it harder for individuals of other countries who are less likely to be white to come here. This is only one part of the union but I feel it is a very important one.


You can question it all you want but I don't think it has anything to do with racism, at least not what people in this thread have talked about so far.

How does being in the EU make it harder for people in other countries to move here? Do you think it'd be easier for non-white people to enter the UK if we were outside of the EU? If so, why?
Original post by SHallowvale

Who said anything about Trump?


The same principle applies to Trump. He wants to ban Mexican immigration to the US. Some people say that is racist, because it disproportionately effects Hispanic people. If you say that EU immigration policy isn't racist, because not all Europeans are white, you should also say that Trump immigration policy isn't racist, because not all Mexicans are Hispanic.
Original post by sweeneyrod
The same principle applies to Trump. He wants to ban Mexican immigration to the US. Some people say that is racist, because it disproportionately effects Hispanic people. If you say that EU immigration policy isn't racist, because not all Europeans are white, you should also say that Trump immigration policy isn't racist, because not all Mexicans are Hispanic.


We haven't ''banned'' anyone, so why you are trying to compare it to a ban on Mexican immigration I do not know. The two policies wouldn't be the same thing.

Regardless, I have no opinion on the ban on Mexican immigration nor do I care about it or about Trump in general. Why bring it up, again?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by SHallowvale
We haven't ''banned'' anyone, so why you are trying to compare it to a ban on Mexican immigration I do not know. The two policies wouldn't be the same thing.

Regardless, I have no opinion on the ban on Mexican immigration nor do I care about it or about Trump in general. Why bring it up, again?


Promoting immigration for one group has the same effect as preventing it for another. As I said, I brought it up to illustrate why people might call EU policy racist. If you don't think Trump is racist, then good for you!

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