[LatinMachine]

All I have to say in terms of research is:
neurons neurons neurons.
If you can stand talking about neurons constantly you'll be fine.

[AlasTTTair]

Damn I got owned!!

Didn't mean to come accross as prejudiced. I just meant that, even if you've got 3 As, I don't think that prestige should be the sole reason you choose a university. Obviously if you have a chance to get into Oxford and you think you'd enjoy it, by all means go for it. I don't think I'd have even got an interview though; my 3 As were in Psychology, Sociology and Media Studies, plus my GCSE grades are beyond poor.

I don't think all the top unis are full of snobs. I guess I'm just saying that some people may not quite fit in there. I guess that's true anywhere though. Maybe I'm wrong. Hey ho. I know I applied to the unis that suited me and the one I am going to is still really highly regarded. I'm sure that I could have got into a slightly more prestigious one, but I'm OK with that. Good luck with whichever uni you choose - just make sure its the right one for you.

[LatinMachine]

The only way you won't fit in at Oxford is if you're stupid. There are people from all sorts of schools (I went to a state comp myself), with all sorts of political views, and all sorts of interests. Just like any other University. Yes, the proportion of people from Eton is higher than anywhere else (and they can seem like a bit of a different species at times, I will admit) but that doesn't automatically mean they're a waste of time to hang around with. Beware of reverse snobbery my friend! But at least you know you got owned

[The Boosh]

it depends what type of psychology you are interested in. manchester met and east london are key players in critical psychology.

[Deus]

If you guys had free choice between Bath and Sheffield, what would you choose and why?

[The Boosh]

for discursive psychology, sheffield.

[LatinMachine]

Bath.
1) It's one of the top Unis for Psych.
2) It's one of the top Unis generally.
3) The Sandwich year - you'll be at an advantage over most other graduates as Psychology work experience is difficult to get, and coming out of Uni with work experience already under your belt will be very good for the CV!

[LatinMachine]

(Original post by The Boosh)
for discursive psychology, sheffield.

Erm, sorry, but what?

At Undergraduate level, the courses are very similar across Universities. There are so many people with Psych degrees floating around looking for work, you need to go to the best University you possibly can. I doubt you should base your entire University choice on how good it is at teaching one theory of language, unless you're doing a postgrad.

[Lolly-88]

(Original post by Deus)
If you guys had free choice between Bath and Sheffield, what would you choose and why?

Does this mean that you're torn between your firm and insurance or were you just asking hypothetically? I know the IB results came out...i'm assuming you got the grades to get in?? If so then congrats!

[The Boosh]

(Original post by PsychologyJen)
Bath.
1) It's one of the top Unis for Psych.
2) It's one of the top Unis generally.
3) The Sandwich year - you'll be at an advantage over most other graduates as Psychology work experience is difficult to get, and coming out of Uni with work experience already under your belt will be very good for the CV!

what are you basing your decision on re: bath being a top uni for psychology?

[Deus]

(Original post by Lolly-88)
Does this mean that you're torn between your firm and insurance or were you just asking hypothetically? I know the IB results came out...i'm assuming you got the grades to get in?? If so then congrats!

Yeah, in fact I scored more than what cambridge and oxford ask for, so did far better than my teachers predicted .

From the looks of it though, I'll be sticking to Bath.

[LatinMachine]

Deus, congratulations on getting your grades!!

€

(Original post by The Boosh)
what are you basing your decision on re: bath being a top uni for psychology?

1) It asks for 3 As. No University can have the cheek to do that unless their course is well applied for and they are rated highly too.
2) It's number 7 in The Times subject league table. I'm not suggesting that the league tables are infallible, but they're a good general indication. You may choose to pick at this argument, but I think league table ranking is a better reason to choose an undergrad course than whether it's best at "discursive psychology." Most undergrad courses probably don't even teach that, and even if they do, you do have to complete the rest of the course as well!

On the Bath vs Sheffield note again, it's good to keep your options open by choosing a well-ranked Uni. You may have an idea that you want to be a Psychologist when you're applying for University, but you could very well change your mind. I think this quote from a Times article applies quite well:

"Our good friend John O'Leary from the Good Uni Guide reckons: "Although academics would like to think subject ranking is most important, most people are looking at the Times overall table and they have a point, because most employers will take more notice of that."

[The Boosh]

(Original post by Deus)
Yeah, in fact I scored more than what cambridge and oxford ask for, so did far better than my teachers predicted .

From the looks of it though, I'll be sticking to Bath.

i see youre from switzerland - you should have stuck to geneva and raided piaget's old files unfortunately you'll find the bath campus a step down from geneva's, but the city is just as nice.

[The Boosh]

(Original post by PsychologyJen)

1) It asks for 3 As. No University can have the cheek to do that unless their course is well applied for and they are rated highly too.
2) It's number 7 in The Times subject league table. I'm not suggesting that the league tables are infallible, but they're a good general indication. You may choose to pick at this argument, but I think league table ranking is a better reason to choose an undergrad course than whether it's best at "discursive psychology." Most undergrad courses probably don't even teach that, and even if they do, you do have to complete the rest of the course as well!

i wasn't sniping at bath, i was simply curious how you came to your decision.

the last thing you should do is choose a university based on league table position when research quality and teaching quality isnt accounted for. it's shocking that you could even suggest that. an employer is going to be more interested in what you have learned, and newspaper tables are not indicative of this. i was expecting something a little bit more informed from you, perhaps a comment about the quality of the academics and references to key works or how they have scultped particular fields, but no. you stick with poor league tables. in 2008 you can get a better view with league tables when the rae returns are assessed, but until then, try not to judge the quality of an institution by a poor newpaper print.

[LatinMachine]

Congratulations, you've completely ignored half of my post and ranted about the one point that I said you would pick up on! (I wasn't assuming you don't like Bath, by the way.)

Bath is rated #9 in the overall league tables, which takes account of the average scores on the RAE. We can therefore get a general indication of what the Psychology department's rating might be. True, the subject tables do not take account of RAE yet, and they do not specify the exact criteria that they've assessed the courses by (other than a general comment that it looks at 'teaching'), but I am willing to bet that the 2008 table will be fairly similar. If the definition of 'Top' is a problem, I am meaning Top 10 (or 15).

(Original post by The Boosh)
an employer is going to be more interested in what you have learned

Debatable. See the quote again:
"Our good friend John O'Leary from the Good Uni Guide reckons: "Although academics would like to think subject ranking is most important, most people are looking at the Times overall table and they have a point, because most employers will take more notice of that."
If you are applying for a post-grad job in Psychology, yes, they WILL be interested in this, but you can't predict your future job at 17 years old. An investment banking firm wouldn't be interested in how much I've learned about Psychology, however it would look at my extra-curriculars and the fact that the courses my University provides are academically demanding (me=not going to be a banker, just to point out!). Therefore it is important to keep your options open, in case you don't end up going into Psychology.

i was expecting something a little bit more informed from you, perhaps a comment about the quality of the academics and references to key works or how they have scultped particular fields, but no.

I could tell you about academics at MY university, but not Bath as I did not apply there. You can go to a less respected University and hope that your future employer is going to do lots of background research into your University to check up on the credentials of the staff, but in reality, this is unlikely! It is all very well feeling obstinately that you are right and league tables are useless, but I believe you're more likely to get a good job if you 'play the game,' so to speak.

the last thing you should do is choose a university based on league table position

No, the last thing you should do is choose a University based on its teaching of an obscure theory of language analysis. When I give my opinion or some information, I base it on what information the person is likely to want and how best I could help them. We all know the problems with league tables, you're preaching to the choir, but my point is that your post was very unlikely to be helpful to the original poster. I'm confused as to why you posted it!

[The Boosh]

The last RAE was in 2001, and it took into account research publications from several years previous to this date. You are talking about research published between 6 and 10 years ago. Given how fluid departments are in terms of staff changes, we are certainly not talking about anything worthy of consideration. Further, the emphasis of the 2001 RAE was on the amount of research published and, given that quantity doesn’t imply quality, you grounds for claiming that the RAE2001 is a “general indication of what Psychology department’s rating might be” is tenuous at best.

Bath being rated 9th in the overall league tables does not tell us about the quality of either the university or of the psychology department. There are no contemporary research scores which are reliable. There are no teaching scores which are reliable. Institutional benchmarks (TQA/QAA) are so out of date that some departments haven’t been assessed in 15 years.

Regarding changes to the league tables, have you not seen the huge investments and restructuring universities are currently undertaking? To name two off the top of my head, Liverpool and Exeter are closing departments and reshuffling staff, employing new profs, building new research centres, and investing £250million each. You will see shifts in the table (spending being one key weighing that will lead to league table change).

If you are applying for psychology jobs in the public sector, then the institution you went to wont make the slightest difference. The public sector has strict recruitment guidelines in order to avoid discrimination. The sector works on a points-system, where certain points are given if the candidate meets the required benchmarks. No points are given for “university prestige” or other TSR mythologies. This is why you’ll see psychologists with a diverse academic background in public sector (particularly, in my experience, education and clinical psychology).

I won’t deny that the private sector has an inherit prejudice in places, but for psychology-related jobs I’ve not seen or heard of anybody being barred from a job on the grounds that they have a Sheffield degree rather than a Bath degree. Given its size (and hence why it is in the Russell Group), Sheffield is geared to research much more than Bath. Being geared towards research translates into being taught the latest theories and ideas and this will definitely be valued when candidates apply for psychology-based jobs (again, what you know and what skills you have developed are so important in job applications).

Outside of psychology jobs, it’s hard to say what will be valued most. Outside of certain groups (magic circle, ib etc) I can’t see an employer sitting down with a league table and ordering his/her applicants in terms of league tables. The process is much more complex than that. The difference between Bath and Sheffield is marginal, it really is. Choice of university should not be reduced to league table positions – it’s plain daft. Sheffield and Bath are two very different cities with different cultures. The universities are diverse too, and the departments can make a massive difference to the quality of your education. Ambiguous league tables, which have no teaching or research indicators are pointless, especially when used to somehow judge the quality of two institutions which float around in similar spots anyway!

I ignored your point about bath asking for AAA on the grounds that so many university courses now ask for AAA. I’m pretty sure Exeter asks for AAA-AAB (most of its subjects ask for this), and Exeter is often 15-20 places below Bath. Be careful, how you use A-levels as indicators of university quality – they are more about popularity than anything else.

Finally, I used discursive psychology as an example of how diverse the field can be. I didn’t want to spell out every single course available at every university. Given that different departments have different strengths, the OP could do with thinking about the kinds of jobs s/he would like to do after the degree, which in turn can inform the choice of department and university. I didn’t want to pursue an argument regarding critical psychology, hence I didn’t pursue it. Perhaps a focus on neuropsychology, or educational psychology, or developmental psychology is required, in which case there are certain key universities which have specialisms in these areas.

[NSW]

(Original post by Deus)
If you guys had free choice between Bath and Sheffield, what would you choose and why?

Sheffield. I prefered the atmosphere of the uni and the city compared to Bath. I'm generally not too keen on campus unis (ie. Bath), and Bath's a small city in comparison to Sheff... Course content I can't comment on though. I would assume they're fairly similar, although I would obviously read up on them if i were choosing between the two.

[LatinMachine]

(Original post by The Boosh)
Further, the emphasis of the 2001 RAE was on the amount of research published and, given that quantity doesn’t imply quality, you grounds for claiming that the RAE2001 is a “general indication of what Psychology department’s rating might be” is tenuous at best.

I was being tenuous - note the use of the word 'might!.' I agree with what you're saying about league tables, they might very well be rubbish, and I'm not saying employers do sit down and 'rank' their applicants, but if you've got a degree from a good University that will stand out on your CV.

I have to admit to not knowing much about other University departments, Oxford is a bit of a bubble, especially for an Undergrad, and when I'm not doing work for my degree I'd rather not be looking at more Psychology stuff

I would agree that for public sector jobs, your undergrad degree will matter less, and your experience and PhD completion will factor more. I don't think 'prestige' is an entirely fictional concept in other jobs (though obviously a 1st from Bath would trump an Oxbridge 2.2). Even if the league tables are baloney, lots of employers still look at them as a guide, and you just have to take a quick glance in some of the TSR subforums to see posts by people who have completed a degree at one of the ex-polys at the bottom end of the tables, and the only jobs they can find are ones they could have got without their degree. Part of my opinion comes also from my dad, who has been in the engineering business for 30 years, and he's told me that if a job applicant has a degree from one what are considered the top 5 universities for engineering, they will have a much better chance of being interviewed. Obviously this isn't the same as Psychology, but it's just an example of how one field in the private sector sets about picking someone.

You say 'inherent prejudice' like it's 100% a bad thing, I would say it's more like 90% a bad thing. I went to visit my friend at Warwick (considered a good Uni, yes?), and ended up talking to a 2nd year Psychologist. He said he'd written two essays, all year. When I compare this to my first year, where I had to write two essays every week, this is a bit of a difference! Luckily it's only 6 a term now, phewf! , and obviously it all depends on how much work you *choose* to do, I'm sure there are people at other Universities who do the same amount of work as me, but I would be very annoyed if an employer thought that my degree was just the same as someone at Warwick who had done the bare minimum! (As it would seem that the bare minimum you have to do at Warwick to not get thrown out during the year would be a lot less than the bare minimum for my course.) But then this goes for any University doesn't it - there's always the annoying person who manages to do no work and still get a first

Most courses are going to teach similar stuff, as most give you GBR. I have to say that my view on the subject is coloured by my own reasons for picking Universities. I originally fell in love with Royal Holloway and wanted to go there. I know a lot of people talk about 'atmosphere' and all that stuff but to me that was never something I thought about as part of my reasoning, as far as I was concerned I would have a good time wherever I decided to go because I would make it that way, regardless of what city it was in. But I wasn't going to turn down what I saw as a better offer! Whether it helps my career remains to be seen, I'll get back to you in ten years or so

Sorry that was a bit long-winded, I tend to ramble. What post-grad are you doing? Is that at Exeter? One of my friends does Geography there, she loves it, although she says it's been too rainy to go to the beach yet!!

[The Boosh]

^^^ your above post is probably the more eloquent viewpoint which compliments (rather than contrasts) with my own. juxtaposing the two will give the op - and others - a general perspective on the debate.

i think the oxbridge badge carries a bit of weight where ever you are, partly on the grounds that oxford and cambridge are recognised as being global leaders in higher education, and partly on the grounds that the students tend to be from a particular culture where working hard is the norm. these lead to general assumptions about the candidates with awards from the institutions. i'm not sure that it's ever a deciding factor (apart from those rare cases where job applications are explicitly filtered so only a certain group of 10-15 universities are considered worthy), but i really wouldnt expect bath to carry any sort of weight like oxbridge above and beyond any of the traditional universities. i don't doubt bath's quality, i'm just naturally cautious of the whole debate (the oxbridge, "and durham"/"doxbridge" debate grates me no end!). and, as i said, the public sector is going to be the biggest sector for grad recruitment in the area and there are laws and policies preventing such discrimination. (on a different note, did you know that plymouth actually validates the bristol doctorate in clinical psychology? and that kent academics teach a big chunk of the ucl doctorate in educational psychology? boundaries are always being crossed in the field...)

you guessed right - i'm an exeter postgrad, phd in...well it's hard to define! it's sort of an applied, critical philosophy of special education/educational psychology, which leans towards consciousness studies. i'm always knee-deep in psychology (particularly how the theories are constructed) and tend to come at things from the outside rather than the inside.

exeter is very wet, too much rain! ive no time to get my surfboard out, but the weather puts me off when its like this (ironically, im a surfer that gets sea-sick when its too rough!). how is the gorgeous oxford?

[LatinMachine]

Durham are just pretenders, there'll never be a Doxbridge :P
Currently I'm back home in Bristol, and it's been very wet although it was gorgeous yesterday.

I'm not sure the public sector will be such a large employer of Psych graduates any more - Clin Psych/Educational courses have always been hard to get onto due to their popularity, and now there's this freeze on Clin Psychs, even fewer will be employed by the NHS. Many Psych graduates (especially ones from Unis that ask for the lower A Level grades) complain they can't find jobs that require a degree, there are loads in jobs they could have just started on at 18. I'm not one of the "50% should have a degree" crowd, and I think a Psych degree is a difficult one to have as a lot of employers still see it as a 'wishy-washy' subject. Also, there's the large proportion of graduates who go into academics, teaching and research at Universities, and I refuse to believe that my moral tutor's double first and PhD from Cambridge had nothing to do with her appointment at Oxford

I should be going up in a couple of weeks time to see our new house (I'm living with four other girls from college) and spend some time in the library (oh joy!), and I won't have my bike with me so I'm going to have to walk everywhere **sigh**