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Scotland can't do referendums any time they want

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Original post by L i b
We didn't vote to remain "part of the UK in the EU", we voted to remain part of the UK. That did not have conditions attached and foreign policy is a question for the whole country.

Equally, the UK Government can't (or, rather, shouldn't) just repeal devolution if the Scottish Parliament votes to exercise its powers in a way they don't like.

The SNP has never accepted the referendum result and was agitating for a second referendum virtually from the day after. Instead of being once in a generation or once in a lifetime as they repeatedly said before the vote, it's now less than two years later and they're already writing legislation for a second vote. It's ludicrous.

I suppose you're right. We can't with one hand allow a second Scottish independence referendum and with the other, deny a second EU referendum. So, out of fairness, we should just say no second referendums full stop.
Original post by nulli tertius
I don't think this "veto" will stick. Spain doesn't recognise Kosovo, but the EU is busy engaging with it, with a view to it becoming a candidate for membership.


Perhaps, but both the Spanish and French leaders have poured cold water on the idea, so in the short term at least I think the vetoes will stick.
Reply 22
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Josb
6
Original post by Platopus
If they want another referendum, I say it's only fair to let them have it. They voted to remain part of a UK in the EU. Circumstances have changed now that the UK is leaving the EU. Besides, the EU might not necessarily accept an independent Scotland and it would be hilarious if they left the UK to remain part of an EU which subsequently rejected them.

The Spanish Prime Minister has said today:"I want to be very clear: Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union. Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of the United Kingdom,” he told a news conference following a summit of European leaders in Brussels.

“I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves … Scotland leaves."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-plea-eu-leaders-sympathy-little-hope

Doesn't sound good.

Original post by nulli tertius
I don't think this "veto" will stick. Spain doesn't recognise Kosovo, but the EU is busy engaging with it, with a view to it becoming a candidate for membership.


Kosovo isn't going to join anytime soon.
Original post by L i b
That's as stupid as saying "the whites rule on the blacks" in the UK. In other words, unutterably stupid. We are all equal in a democratic United Kingdom and have an equal say in our governance.



No-one has a "right" to join the EU


Not stupid at all as facts prove. They want to remain in the EU and the English voted to leave. Then the English rule.
The English shtting themselves at the prospect of being left alone with Wales now.

Scottish independence will come. I'm not really sure why you guys are so scared of it happening anyways. Personally, I think the entire world would be better if the United Kingdom split up and each country continued to go about their business without the rule of another above them.
Reply 25
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Joep95
19
I want rid of Scotland they have to realise in the United Kingdom they won't always get what they want, I would wait 3 years then give them another referendum so it's 5 years since the last one and then put make it that they have to wait at least 20 years for a future referendum.
Scotland voted to stay in the UK BEFORE the UK dragged it into possibly the worst political decision of all time. Now they've changed their minds. That's the democracy you keep banging on about. If you don't like it, that's tough **** really.

Original post by joecphillips
I want rid of Scotland they have to realise in the United Kingdom they won't always get what they want


The irony coming from a leave voter.
Reply 27
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Joep95
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Original post by JordanL_
Scotland voted to stay in the UK BEFORE the UK dragged it into possibly the worst political decision of all time. Now they've changed their minds. That's the democracy you keep banging on about. If you don't like it, that's tough **** really.



The irony coming from a leave voter.


I'm not the one *****ing because I didn't get my own way.

I'm pretty sure there was a push for a eu referendum before the Scottish referendum took place, the truth is we can't keep having a referendum every year just for the sake of it that is why I'm saying have one in a few years and then set it up so they have a vote every so often like 20 years.

No irony, I'm not pushing for second referendums every 2 minutes.

I would say destroying the country by staying in the USE like you would like would be the worst decision possible and the majority agree with me.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by joecphillips
I'm not the one *****ing because I didn't get my own way.

I'm pretty sure there was a push for a eu referendum before the Scottish referendum took place, the truth is we can't keep having a referendum every year just for the sake of it that is why I'm saying have one in a few years and then set it up so they have a vote every so often like 20 years.

No irony, I'm not pushing for second referendums every 2 minutes.

I would say destroying the country by staying in the USE like you would like would be the worst decision possible and the majority agree with me.


People voted for Scotland to stay in the UK under the circumstances at the time. The circumstances changed significantly. Now people have changed their minds.

If you want to decide things by referendum, you need to accept that that happens.
For a country that's famous for shouting "freedom" and wanting to break free from the oppression of its English rulers based hundreds of miles away outside Scotland, I do wonder why the SNP are so keen to sign up to having another political master based hundreds of miles away outside Scotland.
Reply 30
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Joep95
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Original post by JordanL_
People voted for Scotland to stay in the UK under the circumstances at the time. The circumstances changed significantly. Now people have changed their minds.

If you want to decide things by referendum, you need to accept that that happens.


I do want things to be decided by referendum but also I do not want the same thing having a referendum every 2 minutes.

The snp were wanting a second referendum anyway they are not suddenly wanting one because of the eu.
Agreed. And in the 2016 Scottish elections a majority of voters voted for unionist parties.

If in the 2020 and 2024 Scottish elections the SNP gets a majority, then we shall allow them to have another referendum around 10 years after the previous one.

In any case, Sturgeon has pretty much now conceded she will not run a new referendum as she isn't sure she can win it. Keep in mind one third of SNP voters cast a ballot for Leave so they might not be too happy about a leave campaign designed to subordinate Scotland to a federal European state where they will have less influence than they do in the UK.

Also, an iScotland wouldn't meet the requirements for EU membership. With oil prices so low Scotland would have an absolutely massive budget deficit of around 15% of GDP, far above the EU's requirement of a 3% max budget deficit to be allowed to join the EU. An EU applicant also needs to have their own currency and central bank prior to acceding to the Eurozone. And Spain intends to veto any Scottish application anyway to deter the Catalonians.
Many more Scots voted against independence in 2014 than voted to stay in the EU last week. Sturgeon has no legal or moral mandate to be posturing as she is. She is insulting the 2 million of us who voted No less than 2 years ago. The whole 'being dragged out of the EU against our will' line is nonsense.

The SNP are a single-issue party and will do absolutely anything to push the independence agenda, including the breathtakingly cheeky bid to become the official opposition at Westminster yesterday on the ludicrous basis of 'we've got more MPs than have confidence in Corbyn'. Rant over.
Original post by joecphillips
I do want things to be decided by referendum but also I do not want the same thing having a referendum every 2 minutes.

The snp were wanting a second referendum anyway they are not suddenly wanting one because of the eu.


It's completely irrelevant why they want one. Things have changed hugely, and that affects whether people want to be a part of the UK or not.

It's hilarious seeing the same people that made a big fuss about democracy and sovereignty now trying to deny Scotland their independence.
Original post by JordanL_
It's completely irrelevant why they want one. Things have changed hugely, and that affects whether people want to be a part of the UK or not.

It's hilarious seeing the same people that made a big fuss about democracy and sovereignty now trying to deny Scotland their independence.


There was an indyref only two years ago, and in the Scottish elections this year a majority voted for unionist parties. If in the 2020 election the SNP gets a substantial majority then we can start to consider a request for another referendum. Perhaps post 2024 if the SNP gets another majority, demonstrating there is real and sustained Scottish demand for one.

The reason Sturgeon has pretty much abandoned talk of an immediate indyref in the aftermath of Brexit is that she isn't sure she'd win. In those circumstances it would be highly immoral to hold yet another referendum.
Reply 35
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Joep95
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Original post by JordanL_
It's completely irrelevant why they want one. Things have changed hugely, and that affects whether people want to be a part of the UK or not.

It's hilarious seeing the same people that made a big fuss about democracy and sovereignty now trying to deny Scotland their independence.


I'm not denying them independence they had a referendum less than 2 years ago and decided to stay and as I have said we can not have a referendum every 2 minutes just because something has changed because things change every day.

How often do you think Scotland should have a referendum every day in case the change their mind in that span?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by joecphillips
I'm not denying them independence they had a referendum less than 2 years ago and decided to stay and as I have said we can not have a referendum every 2 minutes just because something has changed because things change every day.


Original post by Thutmose-III
There was an indyref only two years ago, and in the Scottish elections this year a majority voted for unionist parties. If in the 2020 election the SNP gets a substantial majority then we can start to consider a request for another referendum. Perhaps post 2024 if the SNP gets another majority, demonstrating there is real and sustained Scottish demand for one.

The reason Sturgeon has pretty much abandoned talk of an immediate indyref in the aftermath of Brexit is that she isn't sure she'd win. In those circumstances it would be highly immoral to hold yet another referendum.


The last referendum was before we decided to leave the EU.
Original post by Duncan2012
Many more Scots voted against independence in 2014 than voted to stay in the EU last week. Sturgeon has no legal or moral mandate to be posturing as she is. She is insulting the 2 million of us who voted No less than 2 years ago. The whole 'being dragged out of the EU against our will' line is nonsense.

The SNP are a single-issue party and will do absolutely anything to push the independence agenda, including the breathtakingly cheeky bid to become the official opposition at Westminster yesterday on the ludicrous basis of 'we've got more MPs than have confidence in Corbyn'. Rant over.


Indeed. Iirc Scotland voted against going into the EU in the 1970s so one could well say they were "dragged in against their will". Sometimes these things happen in a democracy.

A majority of Scots voted for unionist parties in the Scottish election this year. If the SNP gets a substantial majority in 2020 and 2024, demonstrating a sustained Scottish demand for another indyref, then perhaps another can be hold approximately ten years after the previous one. But not before, and not without a renewed mandate from the Scots people demonstrated at Holyrood elections
Reply 38
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Joep95
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Original post by JordanL_
The last referendum was before we decided to leave the EU.


Clever boy do you want a medal for pointing out 2014 was before 2016?
Original post by JordanL_
The last referendum was before we decided to leave the EU.


People in 2014 knew that an EU referendum was on the cards, and were particularly aware of it during the Scots election this year where a majority voted for unionist parties.

It would take Scotland 5 to 7 years to join the EU after leaving the UK. Given low oil prices an iScotland would need to implement vicious austerity to bring down their budget deficit from 15% of GDP to the maximum 3% of GDP. They would also need to have their own currency and central bank for at least two years prior to acceding to the Eurozone. And EU member states like Spain have said they will veto a Scottish accession to the EU anyway.

In such circumstances, and given the way Scots voted in the election this year, there is no basis for an immediate referendum. If the Scots can demonstrate a sustained desire for a renewed indyref by giving the SNP majorities in 2020 at least, then a new indyref can be considered.

Otherwise it just comes across as a highly dishonest attempt to put the same question over and over again until you get the answer you want.

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