An unpleasant truth about Islam and Western culture.
True Islamic culture is not compatible with true Secularist culture. True secularism is the belief that religion can play absolutely no role in the affairs of the state. True Islamic doctrine fundamentally opposes this principle. There is no compromise between these ideologies. The expansion of Islam and Muslim immigration into Western nations is exacerbating this conflict. One ideology is going to fundamentally change the other. That is the struggle we witnessing in real time with the recent terror attacks.
Most Muslims aren’t terrorists, but most Muslims do support Sharia Law. Muslims amongst us who support Sharia Law contribute to this conflict directly, and indirectly. They are a threat to secularist principles. It is not racist, or bigoted to acknowledge that if it is true. Many of us realize that a tipping point is upon us. That is the driving force behind Brexit and the Donald Trump movement. Our society has a choice. Directly oppose the growing influence of an ideology we reject, or compromise our own beliefs to accommodate it. *
Most Muslims aren’t terrorists, but most Muslims do support Sharia Law. Muslims amongst us who support Sharia Law contribute to this conflict directly, and indirectly. They are a threat to secularist principles. It is not racist, or bigoted to acknowledge that if it is true. Many of us realize that a tipping point is upon us. That is the driving force behind Brexit and the Donald Trump movement. Our society has a choice. Directly oppose the growing influence of an ideology we reject, or compromise our own beliefs to accommodate it. *
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You assume Muslim leaders want to bring sharia ideology into governance and public service roles, but looking at Sadiq Khan, the Muslim mayor of London who attended gay pride and supported gay rights, I think that proves your assumption wrong.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia. Let's face it more and more Muslims in the west, especially the young are becoming less religious and more care free in terms of following Islam. That's what I've seen anyway.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia. Let's face it more and more Muslims in the west, especially the young are becoming less religious and more care free in terms of following Islam. That's what I've seen anyway.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Proximo
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia.
In the UK it is around 40%
But you can confirm this with a quick google
Whilst I don't think either Brexit or Donald Trump are the answer, in principle I do agree with you. I think a more effective approach would be to reduce immigration specifically from Middle Eastern theocracies, as this is where the supremacy of religion over society is most prominent. Those few who are allowed to come to the West could then be put on to some sort of course about Western values beforehand, although I'm not sure whether this would have any real impact without commencing a proper investigation into it. But overall, anyone who preaches that religious law should take precedence over secular principles is definitely a problem for society - and that goes for any religion, although it is undeniably most prolific in Islamic circles.
Those who seem to imply that there is an imminent 'Islamic takeover', I think, are exaggerating massively, but an influx of Islamic immigration (particularly due to the migrant crisis) will inevitably stoke tensions, which I believe are being inadequately addressed by a number of European governments.
Those who seem to imply that there is an imminent 'Islamic takeover', I think, are exaggerating massively, but an influx of Islamic immigration (particularly due to the migrant crisis) will inevitably stoke tensions, which I believe are being inadequately addressed by a number of European governments.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Proximo
You assume Muslim leaders want to bring sharia ideology into governance and public service roles, but looking at Sadiq Khan, the Muslim mayor of London who attended gay pride and supported gay rights, I think that proves your assumption wrong.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia. Let's face it more and more Muslims in the west, especially are becoming less religious and more care free in terms of following Islam. That's what I've seen anyway.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia. Let's face it more and more Muslims in the west, especially are becoming less religious and more care free in terms of following Islam. That's what I've seen anyway.
Well considering over 50% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal and 40% want Sharia Law implemented in the UK, I'm not quite sure where you got this idea that Muslims are becoming 'less religious'. Sadiq Khan is hardly a good representation of the Muslim majority. How many Imams or high-profile Muslim leaders worldwide have you heard of who support LGBT rights and have actively spoken out against discrimination of gay people, apostates, non-believers and anyone else they believe to be 'sinners'?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Proximo
You assume Muslim leaders want to bring sharia ideology into governance and public service roles, but looking at Sadiq Khan, the Muslim mayor of London who attended gay pride and supported gay rights, I think that proves your assumption wrong.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia. Let's face it more and more Muslims in the west, especially are becoming less religious and more care free in terms of following Islam. That's what I've seen anyway.
And I'm not sure how you got to the idea that most Muslims support sharia. Let's face it more and more Muslims in the west, especially are becoming less religious and more care free in terms of following Islam. That's what I've seen anyway.
To see this in practice, you only have to see the numbers on ISOC who refuse to condemn slavery or death for apostates, who oppose homosexuality and ridicule moderates such as Maajid Nawaz and even Khan himself for "selling out".
Original post by ckingalt
True Islamic culture is not compatible with true Secularist culture. True secularism is the belief that religion can play absolutely no role in the affairs of the state. True Islamic doctrine fundamentally opposes this principle.
What, religion and secularism are in opposition in some way? Such insight! I'm sure no-one could have seen that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by ckingalt
True Islamic culture is not compatible with true Secularist culture. True secularism is the belief that religion can play absolutely no role in the affairs of the state. True Islamic doctrine fundamentally opposes this principle. There is no compromise between these ideologies. The expansion of Islam and Muslim immigration into Western nations is exacerbating this conflict. One ideology is going to fundamentally change the other. That is the struggle we witnessing in real time with the recent terror attacks.
Most Muslims aren’t terrorists, but most Muslims do support Sharia Law. Muslims amongst us who support Sharia Law contribute to this conflict directly, and indirectly. They are a threat to secularist principles. It is not racist, or bigoted to acknowledge that if it is true. Many of us realize that a tipping point is upon us. That is the driving force behind Brexit and the Donald Trump movement. Our society has a choice. Directly oppose the growing influence of an ideology we reject, or compromise our own beliefs to accommodate it. *
Most Muslims aren’t terrorists, but most Muslims do support Sharia Law. Muslims amongst us who support Sharia Law contribute to this conflict directly, and indirectly. They are a threat to secularist principles. It is not racist, or bigoted to acknowledge that if it is true. Many of us realize that a tipping point is upon us. That is the driving force behind Brexit and the Donald Trump movement. Our society has a choice. Directly oppose the growing influence of an ideology we reject, or compromise our own beliefs to accommodate it. *
It isn't growing.
This is the last throw of the dice for Islamists. Their ideology is dying. The numbers show that is the case. That is why they hate secular education. That is why they hate modern culture.
The problem with people like you is that you use this tragedy to attack anything that you don't like including Brexit. Muslim immigration till last year was virtually all Non-EU. So, how can you expect to have a serious discussion on the subject?
Original post by anarchism101
What, religion and secularism are in opposition in some way? Such insight! I'm sure no-one could have seen that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
However, in Islam, religion is the judiciary, executive and legistature!
Original post by anarchism101
What, religion and secularism are in opposition in some way? Such insight! I'm sure no-one could have seen that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Christianity and secularism are completely compatible. *
Original post by BaconandSauce
In the UK it is around 40%
But you can confirm this with a quick google
But you can confirm this with a quick google
My quick google search found it was 23%, a lot lower than you said but still a substantial number - I'd have to look at the questioning and methodology of the polls however
Original post by TheTechN1304
Well considering over 50% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal and 40% want Sharia Law implemented in the UK, I'm not quite sure where you got this idea that Muslims are becoming 'less religious'. Sadiq Khan is hardly a good representation of the Muslim majority. How many Imams or high-profile Muslim leaders worldwide have you have of worldwide who support LGBT rights and have actively spoken out against discrimination of gay people, apostates, non-believers and anyone else they believe to be 'sinners'?
Yea that figure of Muslims thinking homosexuality should be illegal is worrying although that's understandable because it's their religion but they don't openly protest against or oppose it. They seem to be going along with it. Don't mention Orlando because there was more at play there than homophobia. I have seen a lot of councils and Muslim leaders deploring discrimination of gay people and non believers, you just have to be willing to see it it and look for it.
Original post by QE2
Polls show a rise in conservatism amongst younger Muslims.
To see this in practice, you only have to see the numbers on ISOC who refuse to condemn slavery or death for apostates, who oppose homosexuality and ridicule moderates such as Maajid Nawaz and even Khan himself for "selling out".
To see this in practice, you only have to see the numbers on ISOC who refuse to condemn slavery or death for apostates, who oppose homosexuality and ridicule moderates such as Maajid Nawaz and even Khan himself for "selling out".
Again I'd need to see the poll and its methodology, I've never been on ISOC here so I can't comment on that. I've read about Nawaz, I think it's the way he goes about counter terrorism that some people don't like. Khan however is excellent, he takes a much more positive route and openly demonstrates his openness to all, that image of a prominent Muslim appeals to other Muslims more than criticism. Khan provides a solution not a problem.
Original post by Proximo
My quick google search found it was 23%, a lot lower than you said but still a substantial number - I'd have to look at the questioning and methodology of the polls however
Yea that figure of Muslims thinking homosexuality should be illegal is worrying although that's understandable because it's their religion but they don't openly protest against or oppose it. They seem to be going along with it. Don't mention Orlando because there was more at play there than homophobia. I have seen a lot of councils and Muslim leaders deploring discrimination of gay people and non believers, you just have to be willing to see it it and look for it.
Again I'd need to see the poll and its methodology, I've never been on ISOC here so I can't comment on that. I've read about Nawaz, I think it's the way he goes about counter terrorism that some people don't like. Khan however is excellent, he takes a much more positive route and openly demonstrates his openness to all, that image of a prominent Muslim appeals to other Muslims more than criticism. Khan provides a solution not a problem.
Yea that figure of Muslims thinking homosexuality should be illegal is worrying although that's understandable because it's their religion but they don't openly protest against or oppose it. They seem to be going along with it. Don't mention Orlando because there was more at play there than homophobia. I have seen a lot of councils and Muslim leaders deploring discrimination of gay people and non believers, you just have to be willing to see it it and look for it.
Again I'd need to see the poll and its methodology, I've never been on ISOC here so I can't comment on that. I've read about Nawaz, I think it's the way he goes about counter terrorism that some people don't like. Khan however is excellent, he takes a much more positive route and openly demonstrates his openness to all, that image of a prominent Muslim appeals to other Muslims more than criticism. Khan provides a solution not a problem.
You only need to debate with some people on here to know it's a problem.
(That there are many Muslims who detest homosexuality, and would gladly hurt someone, a homosexual, given the opportunity.)
It's a strict, intolerant, violent, backward religion which stems from a mythology about a war mongering, mass murdering paedophile. It isn't compatible with any modern society, especially any modern Western society.
In order for it to be allowed and tolerated here it needs to be severely watered down. Much more than it is now. But even then, I don't think it deserves nearly as much slack as it's been given up until now.
In order for it to be allowed and tolerated here it needs to be severely watered down. Much more than it is now. But even then, I don't think it deserves nearly as much slack as it's been given up until now.
Original post by Rorschach II
You only need to debate with some people on here to know it's a problem.
(That there are many Muslims who detest homosexuality, and would gladly hurt someone, a homosexual, given the opportunity.)
(That there are many Muslims who detest homosexuality, and would gladly hurt someone, a homosexual, given the opportunity.)
I highly doubt anyone on here would gladly hurt a homosexual, you shouldn't be so cynical, it's not healthy.
Original post by Proximo
I highly doubt anyone on here would gladly hurt a homosexual, you shouldn't be so cynical, it's not healthy.
However, there are enough who support the Islamic punishments of death for homosexuality, apostasy and adultery to suggest that, in a position of authority in an Islamic state, they might possibly do. After all, they see the killing of such people as totally acceptable - under the appropriate conditions.
Original post by Proximo
I've read about Nawaz, I think it's the way he goes about counter terrorism that some people don't like.
Khan however is excellent, he takes a much more positive route and openly demonstrates his openness to all, that image of a prominent Muslim appeals to other Muslims more than criticism. Khan provides a solution not a problem.
Original post by Proximo
I highly doubt anyone on here would gladly hurt a homosexual, you shouldn't be so cynical, it's not healthy.
So what if they phyiscally don't go around punching Muslims? A lot of them still think homosexuals should be killed, which of course is a problem.
Any so called muslim that attends a gay pride march is certainly not a true muslim.
Original post by ckingalt
Most Muslims aren’t terrorists, but most Muslims do support Sharia Law. Muslims amongst us who support Sharia Law contribute to this conflict directly, and indirectly. They are a threat to secularist principles. It is not racist, or bigoted to acknowledge that if it is true. Many of us realize that a tipping point is upon us. That is the driving force behind Brexit and the Donald Trump movement. Our society has a choice. Directly oppose the growing influence of an ideology we reject, or compromise our own beliefs to accommodate it. *
Most Muslims aren’t terrorists, but most Muslims do support Sharia Law. Muslims amongst us who support Sharia Law contribute to this conflict directly, and indirectly. They are a threat to secularist principles. It is not racist, or bigoted to acknowledge that if it is true. Many of us realize that a tipping point is upon us. That is the driving force behind Brexit and the Donald Trump movement. Our society has a choice. Directly oppose the growing influence of an ideology we reject, or compromise our own beliefs to accommodate it. *
What exactly can we do about a muslim who believes this stuff but doesnt put it into practise? Are we living in a far right, fascist establishment trying to control our thoughts?
From a legal stance we can despise muslims who believe in stuff like this. But that's it. It's futile to criticise the ideology and start with a practical approach.
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