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EU protection racket threatens to kneecap England

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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The single market is a protectionist cartel designed to enforce political union on it's cowed members by economic union. With arrogant 'teutons' lecturing people on what to do, to the detriment of most European nations, especially the south. Thank **** we are out. Shame so many of our politicians are still sell outs, but it can change in the future I guess.
    Cool story, but what has this got to do with us?

    We will be leaving the EU but can still have access to the single market. Why is it in our interests to completely leave the single market?

    For the sake of trade and business we are better off with access.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Absolutely. And what I found interesting is that these guys, incredibly intelligent as they are, are also truly pro-European in the cultural sense. As I said, one of them, who placed in the top 3 on the BCL, works for the number 1 chambers in the country... he speaks, reads and writes medieval German. Latin and Italian. He's a Wagner fanatic. We spent three weeks in Italy on a road trip from Palermo to Venice, he is one of the most culturally un-Anglo-Saxon Anglo-Saxons you will ever meet. But he also has a very strong sense of the importance of democratic accountability and his view is that it is a mistake, and contrary to all the lessons the English have learned about democracy since 1688, to have a body that we cannot vote out making laws for us (and as someone who has done some work in the EU regulatory law area, he knows whereof he speaks).
    I find it so hard to believe that you have a friend who is exceptionally good at law, who has worked in EU regulation, but thinks that leaving the EU is a good idea.Boggling
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The single market is a protectionist cartel designed to enforce political union on it's cowed members by economic union. With arrogant 'teutons' lecturing people on what to do, to the detriment of most European nations, especially the south. Thank **** we are out. Shame so many of our politicians are still sell outs, but it can change in the future I guess.
    The thinking behind 'Flexit' if you're familiar with it is to remain in the single market for the short-term as we phase repatriation of our laws, and then further down the line remove ourselves entirely from the single market and the common external tariff.*

    This is what the likes of Daniel Hannan had proposed before the referendum, but after the narrow victory he, along with many others, would have liked a compromise where we essentially remain in the single market indefinitely due to the lack of a mandate for such a 'hard Brexit'. Despite this, all those die-hard Remoaner types won't even discuss any of these Brexit possibilities, instead they just shout "'Nah, you racists can just leave for good, it's what you wanted all along!!!". Quite amusing.*
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    Cool story, but what has this got to do with us?

    We will be leaving the EU but can still have access to the single market. Why is it in our interests to completely leave the single market?

    For the sake of trade and business we are better off with access.
    So it dies as a model. I'm fairly relaxed though, because I am pretty sure the single market and EU will die.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Good, and so they should. It was made crystal clear that this was going to happen before the vote so anybody acting as if this is some kind of surprise must have had wool in their ears.
    Spoken like a true masochist.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Good, and so they should. It was made crystal clear that this was going to happen before the vote so anybody acting as if this is some kind of surprise must have had wool in their ears.
    What a patriot. Thanks for the solidarity.
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    (Original post by midnightice)
    Spoken like a true masochist.
    Not as a masochist, as someone who supports the EU and someone who hasn't deluded themselves with delusions of grandeur about Britain's importance in the world.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    What a patriot. Thanks for the solidarity.
    It's a pleasure.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Not as a masochist, as someone who supports the EU and someone who hasn't deluded themselves with delusions of grandeur about Britain's importance in the world.



    It's a pleasure.
    I think you have strong delusions of grandeur about a federal Europe's importance in the world.
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    (Original post by midnightice)
    I think you have strong delusions of grandeur about a federal Europe's importance in the world.
    I don't think so
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Not as a masochist, as someone who supports the EU and someone who hasn't deluded themselves with delusions of grandeur about Britain's importance in the world.



    It's a pleasure.
    I've heard this over and over- we must be in the EU because empire is gone, and Brexiteers want to 'relive empire'. It has no basis in reality and reeks of projection. Actually remainers are the ones obsessed with 'foreign policy presence' and want the US wants. It was absolutely nothing to do with that, I'd be quite happy conducting very little foreign policy at all. I voted on the basis of economics, self-determination, liberty and democracy.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I don't think so
    The EU is doomed and it is hard to see who it benefits beyond Germany and maybe the odd country.They have proven they cannot change and what they are about. They are economically failing. They obliterate democracy and treat European peoples with contempt. They are causing misery and shifts to extreme left and right.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I've heard this over and over- we must be in the EU because empire is gone, and Brexiteers want to 'relive empire'. It has no basis in reality and reeks of projection. Actually remainers are the ones obsessed with 'foreign policy presence' and want the US wants. It was absolutely nothing to do with that, I'd be quite happy conducting very little foreign policy at all. I voted on the basis of economics, self-determination, liberty and democracy.
    I voted on the basis of global security, peace, science, the environment, tolerance and freedom of movement. Whilst Little Englanders believe their fantasies that you can ignore what's going on in the rest of the world and shut it out with with walls and barriers, they are existing on a totally different plane of reality with people who are actually in tune with what is going on in this world. Anybody who believes that the concept of the nation state is something that can exist forever is severely and dangerously deluded.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The EU is doomed and it is hard to see who it benefits beyond Germany and maybe the odd country.They have proven they cannot change and what they are about. They are economically failing. They obliterate democracy and treat European peoples with contempt. They are causing misery and shifts to extreme left and right.
    The EU is not doomed.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    We can be a global nation and have access to the single market so, again, why should we leave the single market all together?

    The article doesn't have anything which supports the argument that we should abandon the EU and the single market.
    Leave EU as we don't like it anyway, we're the most rejected (on ideas) and reject everything.
    Leave single market as we want to control immigration, staying in Single Market would be taking the p*** and people won't be happy, neither side. Which would rise UKIP, to keep them down May will get us out if no control over immigration.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I voted on the basis of global security, peace, science, the environment, tolerance and freedom of movement. Whilst Little Englanders believe their fantasies that you can ignore what's going on in the rest of the world and shut it out with with walls and barriers, they are existing on a totally different plane of reality with people who are actually in tune with what is going on in this world. Anybody who believes that the concept of the nation state is something that can exist forever is severely and dangerously deluded.



    The EU is not doomed.
    Oh, thats one again. 'Little Englanders' Just because we believe in a right to political self-determination. Would you refer to Little Caribbeaners? Or little Indianers?

    Why can we be called that for rejecting political union? In that case they are little Europeans for not wanting union with Russia, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, you name it.

    Anyone who believes in Utopia is dangerously deluded, history has shown you will have to cross rivers of blood and never get there anyway. Anyone who believes global governance is not sinister and to the detriment of the people is dangerously deluded. Anyone who believes you an eradicate tribe and culture and homogenize humanity is dangerously deluded ad it serves a societal, moral evolutionary purpose.

    Come back in 2020. The EU is shot.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh, thats one again. 'Little Englanders' Just because we believe in a right to political self-determination. Would you refer to Little Caribbeaners? Or little Indianers?

    Why can we be called that for rejecting political union? In that case they are little Europeans for not wanting union with Russia, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, you name it.

    Anyone who believes in Utopia is dangerously deluded, history has shown you will have to cross rivers of blood and never get there anyway. Anyone who believes global governance is not sinister and to the detriment of the people is dangerously deluded. Anyone who believes you an eradicate tribe and culture and homogenize humanity is dangerously deluded ad it serves a societal, moral evolutionary purpose.

    Come back in 2020. The EU is shot.
    For expecting total, 100% self-determination in a globalised, completely interconnected world? Yes, I think I'm entirely justified in being pejorative to people who believe that fantasy.

    And on the matter of the importance of international cooperation, I'm afraid that I believe world-leading philosophers and scientists more than SaucissonSecCy from TSR.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I voted on the basis of global security, peace, science, the environment, tolerance and freedom of movement. Whilst Little Englanders believe their fantasies that you can ignore what's going on in the rest of the world and shut it out with with walls and barriers, they are existing on a totally different plane of reality with people who are actually in tune with what is going on in this world. Anybody who believes that the concept of the nation state is something that can exist forever is severely and dangerously deluded. *
    Do you hear yourself?

    shut it out with walls and barriers

    Oh, so like the common external tariff? A protectionist racket that inflates prices for the consumer and subsidises failing industries, all whilst discriminating against developing economies wishing to trade their way of poverty to the world's largest market. But oh no, the EU would rather give 'aid' than liberalise world trade, as it would damage their cronyist establishment.

    I think you need have a look again at what David Davis, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox are seeking in their post-Brexit vision. It's a more libertarian outlook where we remove the walls and barriers, as you like to put it, and pursue free trade deals with the rest of the world which we have not been able to do whilst burdened with the common external tariff. Either you simply have not been listening to the news or you have shrugged it off because it doesn't fit with your ill-informed narrative of what Leave was all about.
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    (Original post by Big, Thick Wali)
    I find this interesting, the most ridiculously well accomplished people I've ever met, generally did vote leave, I voted remain, but I respect democracy and the TitanticTwitPhil is definitely fulfilling this stereotype of a sneering middle class crybaby.
    That's because they will be OK. They don't really rely on the real economy the rest of us inhabit and even if they did with a genuinely elite skill set they can emigrate anywhere if it all goes tits up.

    The caricature of Remainers is as simplistic as that of Brexiters. It is not about loving the perceived cultural aspects of the EU. It is for me about the lack of faith I have in the British government and the electorate which votes it in. It is also about guaranteeing Britain's economic stability. Quite simply it is in my assessment in the British national interest and the British people's interest to stay in. Just because one supports the flag-waving side doesn't mean one is being patriotic: quite the opposite in this case.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    In my experience Remainers are often (not always, but usually) desperately insecure lower-middle class people who think that being pro-EU confers on them a sophistication and worldliness they lack and will never possess. Most of them are Little Europeans who have never travelled anywhere that requires you to get a visa or visa waiver.

    [b]My most intelligent friends, the ones that got 1st-class honours at Oxford, work at the chancery bar, can speak fluent medieval German and regularly travel to the far east..., they all voted Leave[/i].
    Well then that's settled it!
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    That's because they will be OK. They don't really rely on the real economy the rest of us inhabit and even if they did with a genuinely elite skill set they can emigrate anywhere if it all goes tits up.
    This was the assumption I was working under, but if we mock brexiteers as blue collar chavs, we must surely have a good chuckle as the dumb schmucks voting remain who think their *****y mid level management jobs and undergrad degrees from RG's universities mean a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    The caricature of Remainers is as simplistic as that of Brexiters. It is not about loving the perceived cultural aspects of the EU. It is for me about the lack of faith I have in the British government and the electorate which votes it in. It is also about guaranteeing Britain's economic stability. Quite simply it is in my assessment in the British national interest and the British people's interest to stay in. Just because one supports the flag-waving side doesn't mean one is being patriotic: quite the opposite in this case.
    I voted remain, but I have zero faith in the European government, Juncker is a massive pisshead who struggles to control his emotions on serious issues. For me in the long term there is little difference between brexit and bremain, but in the short term I thought things would be a little better for the poorest people in Europe.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So it dies as a model. I'm fairly relaxed though, because I am pretty sure the single market and EU will die.
    And... what does this have to do with us?

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