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EU protection racket threatens to kneecap England

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Take our short survey, £100 of Amazon vouchers to be won! 23-09-2016
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The 'mismanagement' is exacerbated hugely because they have lack of economic sovereignty and are in the single currency. Of course they didn't have the somewhat dubious benefits of 'single market' membership, before, but it amazes me how these blindly in love EUphiles, who will accept no criticism(who are a large part of what lost the referendum) simply deny facts- they never had levels of unemployment or poverty like that, you'd have to go back to Franco and the dictatorship when Spain, did, when they were in the Peseta, they were far better off. I'm not denying that the EU may have benefited Germany, and the like of Poland maybe(although Poland actually is not in the Eurozone) but these are very different cultures and economies...they would be far better off with the flexibility of their own currencies, not to mention tax policies(which the EU seeks to now harmonize)and contrary to the propaganda, in favour of globalism, there is much credible economic opinion to support that. And why do we need and EU army when we have NATO and the UN?

    This is just every unnaccountable bureaucracts dream, another layer of politicos, lunching it decadently, obliterating democracy and national sovereignty, and causing economic misery with their high handed arrogance.
    The lack of "sovereignty" makes them pay out 13 months pay, not collect taxes, cheat their way into the Euro with Goldman? It makes Spain say, well hey look at other countries doing something for their youth, we don't care if we have 50% youth unemployment, we can't do anything about it.

    Your posts are an embarrassment to human intellect.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I am saying that our economy is the 5th largest in the world. The EU has sat on it's hands and has a bad record. They are protectionist. We are in terms of population, both small proportions of China, but anyhow, there is so much more to trade than China, there is the commonwealth and anglosphere, India, Australia et al cueing up.

    You are sold on this thing and totally negating the UK's hand in the world.

    There is Japan, OZ, USA, China, India- all totally different sizes. They make their way.

    We are held back by an EU with a terrible economic model and history, and people act as though our entire mercantile, rich global history is irrelevant, it isn't and history pertains to the future. You people are much , much to negative, and far too blind to the faults of the EU. I think you lack philosophical perspective, too, with respect.
    No, you are vastly overestimating your hand. Something I have found the Brits to generally do a lot of.

    And that last part, just lel. What does philosophy even have to do with this?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    They get 5/8 most arrogant, and 6/8 least compassionate.
    And 75% say most trustworthy, which completely obliterates your previous point that southern European nations despise and reject Germany. Nicely done.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Once again, like on the economic point, I'm the one being objective, yoiu are the one making ludicruous claims. 'Uk's economy is hopeless and insignificant compared to Germanys.' I do not state nonsense like Germany having a hopeless tiny economy, I simply use objectivity to show that the above statement is nonsense. 'Everyone hates you and Germany is widely loved' Again, I don't state that we are so much more loved, I simply show you the above which portrays it clearly isn't like that.
    Wrong, you just state factually incorrect nonsense like Germany being a 'moderately powerful economy' that is 'in a downturn'. Again, look at the numbers.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You are consumed by bitterness.
    Look, please tell me why I should be bitter. Please do. My country is winning! We were dominating you lot economically and politically (and on the football pitch) left and right already, and you idiots just shot yourself in the foot in a historic mistake, showing the whole world how small-minded and nationalistic you are.

    Mate, I am the opposite of bitter. I am gloating. I am making you realize just how much you messed up, and how much your generation will suffer.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And, as I say, there would be none of this animosity, if the EU had that much to objectively commend it, and the UK was really and irrelevance. Why would you go on like this? The EU would be totally secure, successful, and you wouldn't be bothered by an irrelevance like us. The fact ius anyone looking at your posts can see this isn't the case- the EU is the OP says a protection racket, it has to use blackmail and threats to keep people in, it is authoritarian and anti-democratic and detrimental to most of it's citizens, so hence a nation not being cowed and leaving will break the status quo and precipitate other nations to be emboldened that maybe they can escape the blackmail and bring to an end this damaging vision. You are well aware of this- it is why you people blindly defend the faults of the EU that mystifies me, as it is the reason why it will fail- more arrogance, more authoritarianism, more conceit and knowing what's best, more obliterating democracy and threats.
    As I have said multiple times, the EU will punish Britain not because it is so relevant - but because it has committed treason against the European idea that we all hold dear. Do you really think the EU wants to pick a fight because it sees Britain as a danger? You weren't even close to being the biggest economy in Europe, and now you're up against a bloc with 10x the economic power.

    The EU is highly beneficial to the vast majority of its citizens, it's just been you lot who always wanted a better deal and more privileges - it's telling how you little Englander internalized the propaganda of the Leave campaign (virtually all of which has been long debunked as lies).

    There is no arrogance or authoritarianism in the EU - what are you even talking about? The EU has democratic bodies, is governed by a clear set of rules, and offers the same chances to all its members.

    See how all your points are wrong, lies, or just borne out of your tremendous ignorance?
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Because there is zero factual evidence that it is, you are just talking out of your nationalist ass, as usual.



    Factually wrong. You're a joke, mate.



    'using the currency thing'? You mean stating the fact that the Pound plummeted as a precursor to the years-long recession you lot will experience? It helping the tiny exports that you actually have (it's not like you have an industry to speak of) will not even come close to canceling that out.
    OK, so I can quote you on all this after the French and German elections, after a couple of years, yeah? You are positive the EU is not going to split?

    There are polls that show more French and Dutch oppose it than Brits.
    You can't even argue on the basis of any facts, you have little good to say about the EU- it is a miserable authoritarian vision.

    The fact that you revert back over and over to calling Brits nationalist and racist shows how cheap you are and how little commends the EU. You stuck 6 million jews in gas chambers, and wanted to dominate Europe. You now have decimated southern Europe but want to teach them all German. Touching.

    All we did was want independence.

    You refuse to accept the blatantly obvious fact that Europe can be inward looking and have a nationalism, that contains nations within nations, in exactly the same way Britain can be an identity with nations within nations.

    Austrian and European, plus two flags, plus no more political union beyond the borders of Europe.

    Not nationalist.

    Welsh and British, plus no more political union beyond the Channel.

    Nationalist.

    Especially when the UK has more mixed race marriages and children than anywhere on earth, particularly London.

    If you were going to make objective arguments for economics benefits, that accepted flaws in the EU, or any need of reform, and didn't resort to cheap, baseless insults, and demean swathes of the British people, who you have no understanding of, I may have taken more remainers cases with respect. This **** is just insufferable. Arrogance, myopia, refusal to accept criticism, you act like some little God, as if everyone should just fall in line and do as they are told when you insult their countries en masse , and promote the same anti-democratic authoritarianism and inflexibility that is wrecking Europe as we speak. On top of this you offer everyone sanctimonious moral lectures if they don't do as told.

    I am not, based on the UK's track record, going to listen to moral lectures about bigotry from the Germans. Even today there are many Neo-Nazis, and in eastern Europe.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Mate, I am the opposite of bitter. I am gloating. I am making you realize just how much you messed up, and how much your generation will suffer.



    As I have said multiple times, the EU will punish Britain not because it is so relevant - but because it has committed treason against the European idea that we all hold dear. Do you really think the EU wants to pick a fight because it sees Britain as a danger? You weren't even close to being the biggest economy in Europe, and now you're up against a bloc with 10x the economic power.

    The EU is highly beneficial to the vast majority of its citizens, it's just been you lot who always wanted a better deal and more privileges - it's telling how you little Englander internalized the propaganda of the Leave campaign (virtually all of which has been long debunked as lies).

    There is no arrogance or authoritarianism in the EU - what are you even talking about? The EU has democratic bodies, is governed by a clear set of rules, and offers the same chances to all its members.
    As I say, why would I care- we don't need 'friends' who never were anyhow. That is the thought you always harboured...live to benefit Germany, have your country insulted, or we will not like you......err not much of a choice is it? Granted 48% are brainwashed and ignorant of 7 centuries of glorious history.

    The EU is the only stagnant continent in terms of economic growth. Again, I am objective, unlike you, I know the EU is a bigger market. This say nothing about what we can make our GDP per person or quality of life, or how we look after our national interest, they are entirely different concepts- look at Japan, OZ, NZ, Switzerland, Canada, and Norway. Prosperous, free, happy outside the EU, and economically far more successful than many in the Eurozone. You simply accept zero flaws with Europe..betraying your dogmatism. I also know the UK is a significant economy, and that we can be more prosperous but more importantly more free and democratic outside...the fact that you demean 52% of a countries peoples reasons fro leaving shows what you are like- a total authoritarian, who favours indoctrination, has no respect for people or individuality. Typical of the worst of European conformism and authoritarianism. We voted for liberty to get away from that. You encapsulate an authoritarian, blackmailing model that enforces conformism top down.

    'The European idea we all hold dear'. Well you are lying if you say that everyone as the same conception. The idea many hold dear is of a continent with diverse cultures and political freedom, not a corrupt, arrogant, high handed monolith that legislates for global corporatism and seeks to homogenize. Of coruse, it figures that you would only show any respect to people who thought what they were told- classic German authoritarianism- see how this thing only benefits you people, and how you tell everyone what to do- that's why you score so high on 'arrogance'.

    Lisbon, look it up. You simply ignore the democratic will, of the Irish, the Dutch, the French 'second (rigged) referendum' style- only the game is up now.

    You will never see that with your stupid arrogant caricatures, your disgraceful smears of bigotry, (don't care what you think of me, but you are making false accusations against millions of Brits who couldn't be further from that)your high handedness and self serving insistence on obedience that you encapsulate the myopia of the EU project and how it is doomed. You actually do the 'collapse' cause huge amounts of good.

    All over the world, conformists, and status quo and establishment lovers will get a shock...still in denial, still far behind the political curve.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    OK, so I can quote you on all this after the French and German elections, after a couple of years, yeah? You are positive the EU is not going to split?
    I beg you to. Of course it won't split. People in the rest of Europe are actually sensible and know what they have in the EU.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    There are polls that show more French and Dutch oppose it than Brits.
    You can't even argue on the basis of any facts, you have little good to say about the EU- it is a miserable authoritarian vision.
    Please, please do show me those polls that show that more people in France and/or the Netherlands are in favor of leaving the EU than the share of people who voted Leave in the UK.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The fact that you revert back over and over to calling Brits nationalist and racist shows how cheap you are and how little commends the EU.
    No, it shows how clear Brits' ulterior motives have become to the rest of the world. Polls show how Leave voters are less educated, hold less favorable views of immigrants - and of course the whole Leave campaign ran on a disgusting basis of xenophobia and nationalism.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You stuck 6 million jews in gas chambers, and wanted to dominate Europe.
    Yup, and we've moved successfully past that. You lot are moving TOWARDS that.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You now have decimated southern Europe but want to teach them all German. Touching.
    Decimated? We bailed them out. You really are deluded.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You refuse to accept the blatantly obvious fact that Europe can be inward looking and have a nationalism, that contains nations within nations, in exactly the same way Britain can be an identity with nations within nations.
    How can a peaceful, prosperous alliance of nations based on friendship and exchange house innate nationalism? It's impossible. Nationalism stems from toxic elements within the member states, and needs to be addressed and fought.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Austrian and European, plus two flags, plus no more political union beyond the borders of Europe.

    Not nationalist.

    Welsh and British, plus no more political union beyond the Channel.

    Nationalist.
    Terrible comparison, many difference. Austria doesn't aggressively pursue national interests within the EU. Austria and the rest of the EU are much less homogeneous economically, politically, and culturally than the constituent 'nations' of the UK.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Especially when the UK has more mixed race marriages and children than anywhere on earth, particularly London.
    If those mixed marriages vote Leave to get Britain a better deal compared to other European nations because they think Britain deserves it, they're still nationalists. Sorry, buddy.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    If you were going to make objective arguments for economics benefits, that accepted flaws in the EU, or any need of reform, and didn't resort to cheap, baseless insults, and demean swathes of the British people, who you have no understanding of, I may have taken more remainers cases with respect.
    The EU has flaws, but they're minor, and unavoidable when so many cultures and interests need to be reconciled. My 'insults' are not baseless, they are based on the very obvious and rather disgusting motivation of Leave voters to cast their vote - and you are a prime example.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    This **** is just insufferable. Arrogance, myopia, refusal to accept criticism, you act like some little God, as if everyone should just fall in line and do as they are told when you insult their countries en masse , and promote the same anti-democratic authoritarianism and inflexibility that is wrecking Europe as we speak. On top of this you offer everyone sanctimonious moral lectures if they don't do as told.
    Pointing out the glaring flaws in your arguments and stating facts has nothing to do with arrogance, myopia, refusal to accept criticism, or sanctimonious moral lectures. I have not insulted one country in this thread or anywhere else - only British leave voters, and clearly for very good reasons.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I am not, based on the UK's track record, going to listen to moral lectures about bigotry from the Germans. Even today there are many Neo-Nazis, and in eastern Europe.
    ... and in Britain!
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Look, please tell me why I should be bitter. Please do. My country is winning! We were dominating you lot economically and politically (and on the football pitch) left and right already, and you idiots just shot yourself in the foot in a historic mistake, showing the whole world how small-minded and nationalistic you are.
    Because, the EU has far less to commend it, in objective terms, than you believe, the richest countries in Europe are outside it. It is the only continent besides Antarctica experiencing zero economic growth, as Dan Hannan pointed out.

    The fact that you go on about domination, within the EU, of the UK, whilst the next minute pretending the project was about friendship and mutual interests, pretending you are unaware of how you exploited southern Europe, shows this is about the German national interests and not much else. It shows your true colours.

    We 'were' dominating you economically and politically. Ah yes, so much friendship and so many noble European aims in that. So we can conclude that your vitriol is over 'were' due to the fact you know longer hold any political dominion over the UK. And in fact zero to do with what benefits other Europeans an a noble vision. Just so long as you can stop pretending hypocritically that it was. I think most Europeans would rather see independent European countries acting in their interest honestly whilst keeping a degree of friendship and friendly rivalry, than false friends who are authoritarians who revel in their doom if they disobey.

    Far from being an advocate of European peace, you are a walking, talking advert for the worst of 20th century Europe and German authoritarianism..people like you are the reason for political unrest and misery all over Europe.

    You are too narcissitic and lacking in humility to ever see this.

    A cowed Britain, doing as it's told an reminded of it's inferiority to Germany, plus a wrecked southern Europe- all being blackmailed and threatend over disobedience overlayed with a fake tone a friendship as Germany cleans up Greece and is the sole benefactor of the Eurozone.

    Inspiring, generous vision- bringing so much authoritarian joy..one day they shall all kneel, cowed before the flag living in serfdom to globalist kleptocracy, eh....
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    I beg you to. Of course it won't split. People in the rest of Europe are actually sensible and know what they have in the EU.



    Please, please do show me those polls that show that more people in France and/or the Netherlands are in favor of leaving the EU than the share of people who voted Leave in the UK.



    Decimated? We bailed them out. You really are deluded.



    Terrible comparison, many difference. Austria doesn't aggressively pursue national interests within the EU. Austria and the rest of the EU are much less homogeneous economically, politically, and culturally than the constituent 'nations' of the UK.



    If those mixed marriages vote Leave to get Britain a better deal compared to other European nations because they think Britain deserves it, they're still nationalists. Sorry, buddy.



    The EU has flaws, but they're minor, and unavoidable when so many cultures and interests need to be reconciled. My 'insults' are not baseless, they are based on the very obvious and rather disgusting motivation of Leave voters to cast their vote - and you are a prime example.

    !
    Your opinion. We will see in time, I think the EU will be massively reduced.

    I will dig them out later.

    You take with one hand 'give' with the other. They are decimated by membership of the Eurozone and lack of economic sovereignty. They need to run their own currencies and economic policy, and a nobel prize winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz supports this.

    Your sanctimony and hypocrisy, there its is again! All countries pursue their national interests, for you to say Germany doesn't is risible, and yes they are hled back from doing it on certain terms because of historical guilt. This does not give you the right to endlessly moralize about the UK.

    What thye think the UK deserves to try and move power to the people democratically, away from the unnaccountable and arrogant? They want to make their lives better and look after our national interests? All you have is more dogma, authoritarianism, and hypocrisy. Europe is a body looking to it's interests, now so is the UK, so will other countries who leave be, so is the US, Australia, Japan, Canada. Those lines can be drawn in different places...you are completely devoid of objectivity and self-righteous, solely because of your own, and this point cannot be made enough, authoritarian dogmatic view of the word.

    As I say, I respect the arguments of more objective remainers, I don't insult and caricature an entire swathe of a country- I think we can see which side, however, the propagand, dogma and insistence on total compliance is on though.

    This really is a libertarian/authoritarian issue for me, it has absolutely nothingto do with the size of our markets in the world, EU and UK, both of which cast against global population are rather small, and to suggest that European nations have to be so much worse of in quality of life or wealth because of exit is simply ideological dogma- what's more, the case studies of such nations as Switerland and Norway, utterly obliterate the theory, and independent nations the size of NZ, OZ and Canada do too. These are not hysterical arguments that demean and insult people, just legitimate ones that harm the dogma, which is why remainers hate them so much.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    The lack of "sovereignty" makes them pay out 13 months pay, not collect taxes, cheat their way into the Euro with Goldman? It makes Spain say, well hey look at other countries doing something for their youth, we don't care if we have 50% youth unemployment, we can't do anything about it.

    Your posts are an embarrassment to human intellect.
    So why does Joseph Stiglitz, nobel winning economist, oppose the Eurozone and say it is causing disaster for southern Europe. Why did he back Brexit and oppose TTIP? Is he thick? Why did Southern Europe never have such unemployment outside the Eurozone? Why are the richest countries in GDP per Capita in Europe outside the EU?

    You people remind me of the people in the UK who thought those who opposed Iraq were complete idiots, and followed the media and political classes line, and hectored anyone who didn't, even though all the experts on the region knew what would happen.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    No, you are vastly overestimating your hand. Something I have found the Brits to generally do a lot of.

    And that last part, just lel. What does philosophy even have to do with this?
    Ah so you are just another EU 'friend' who hates Britain and wants a cowed Britain.


    Philosophy has a lot to do with it- politics is driven by short termists, soulless utilitarians and bean counters. Instead of people with a philosophical or historical perspective that pertains to the future.

    I wasn't thinking of some BS NHS figures, or some crap from Osbourne about house prices or household bills, only more threats to screw the poorer people from a Tory government- why would we reward that crap?

    I thought of climate change, rapidly accelerating, I though of 7/8 centuries of history, I though of independent countries and their respective sizes and economies and quality of lives, all over the world, I thought of accountability, democracy, liberty, and centuries into the future. You people are hysterical and short termist, your only case, your best one, was the short term fear based one, a very short term economic one based on instability. In terms of the long term geopolitics, history, and judging by non-Euro countries, quality of life and GDP per person, not to mention liberty, leave won.

    It's fine if some remainers disagree, it's just the ones who try and smear every person who made the decision, who are making my point for me- they are simply miserable authoritarians who demand obedience of thought and a constricted future. The temperament and arguments of such people just pushed me even further to leave, showed how they have to use an abusive relationship and blackmail to keep us in.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So why does Joseph Stiglitz, nobel winning economist, oppose the Eurozone and say it is causing disaster for southern Europe. Why did he back Brexit and oppose TTIP? Is he thick? Why did Southern Europe never have such unemployment outside the Eurozone? Why are the richest countries in GDP per Capita in Europe outside the EU?

    You people remind me of the people in the UK, who though those who opposed Iraq were complete idiots, and followed the media and political classes line, and hectored anyone who didn't, even though all the experts on the region knew what would happen.
    A single economist that know better than all others? And there are many that oppose TTIP and it is far from certain, and even if it comes, it won't be what it was in the leaked documents. What a ridiculous notion.

    Why are Norway, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein outside? And yet inside of free movement? Think about those countries, and then come back to me and tell me if you think England can do the same as them.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    A single economist that know better than all others? And there are many that oppose TTIP and it is far from certain, and even if it comes, it won't be what it was in the leaked documents. What a ridiculous notion.
    All that opinion came from people who depend on the status quo and are funded by the EU...come of it, the EU can fund people to get it's vision favourably portrayed, that is not rocket science and you know it.

    There is a hypocrisy over experts- this guy is one, top of his game, and totally and utterly independent, with no dog in the fight.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Ah so you are just another EU 'friend' who hates Britain and wants a cowed Britain.


    Philosophy has a lot to do with it- politics is driven by short termists, soulless utilitarians and bean counters. Instead of people with a philosophical or historical perspective that pertains to the future.

    I wasn't thinking of some BS NHS figures, or some crap from Osbourne about house prices or household bills, only more threats to screw the poorer people from a Tory government- why would we reward that crap?

    I thought of climate change, rapidly accelerating, I though of 7/8 centuries of history, I though of independent countries and their respective sizes and economies and quality of lives, all over the world, I thought of accountability, democracy, liberty, and centuries into the future. You people are hysterical and short termist, your only case, your best one, was the short term fear based one, a very short term economic one based on instability. In terms of the long term geopolitics, history, and judging by non-Euro countries, quality of life and GDP per person, not to mention liberty, leave won.

    It's fine if some remainers disagree, it's just the ones who try and smear every person who made the decision, who are making my point for me- they are simply miserable authoritarians who demand obedience of thought and a constricted future. The temperament and arguments of such people just pushed me even further to leave, showed how they have to use an abusive relationship and blackmail to keep us in.
    Funny. Many Brexiters I spoke to, when pushed, admitted that they hate the EU because it's not run by Britain. When pointed out to that their own government wouldn't do much different to the EU, isn't much better, the answer was yes, but at least it's "ours". You are rather deluded.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    All that opinion came from people who depend on the status quo and are funded by the EU...come of it, the EU can fund people to get it's vision favourably portrayed, that is not rocket science and you know it.

    There is a hypocrisy over experts- this guy is one, top of his game, and totally and utterly independent, with no dog in the fight.
    He is against the monetary union of the EU and in turn against the EU. He very much has a biased view. He is very much a left-wing economist and as such represents the unfavorable view that the EU is a neoliberal project (that he doesn't like).

    Try again.
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    The other thing I resent intensely is that despite calling us xenophobes(we rejected a political institution not a continent, DUH)your posts reek of snobbish Britophobia.

    What you will not accept is that this is part of a global political trend, a type of politics of globalist, homogenizing neoliberalism is being rejected, and it will happen across Europe and in the US. The last paradigm shift in the late 70's and early 80's was right, and so is this one, it's just the establishment has not accepted it because this one is against inequality.

    Your side of the spectrum likes to try and hush up the peoples opinion, all the vulgar masses you don't like, consdescend to everyone and tell them whats best for them, and try to tell people what everyones thinking against the reality of whats going on out there. Hence the myopia, making the Brits the scapegoats. All over the world the media and politcal bubble has been telling people what they must and do think, contrary to whats going on, they are trying to control the narrative. What they don't see, in their arrogance, is that democracy is so precious and worthwhile, they now seem to actively hate it. The point of democracy is to not live in tyranny..it is there to reflect everyones real everyday experience of policies being made so that they can change it and get something else. If the elites and institutions like the EU hate this and want to obliterate it, they deserve contempt. Opinion does average out and reflect the overall success of a paradigm- peoples instincts at the last shift were right, and they are correct this time- elites are behind the curve, arrogantly dismiss it, and haven't processed it.
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    No.

    What you fail to see is that many people are not actually against EU as much as against the establishment, and the establishment was mostly pro-EU. This is reflected in votes everywhere around the world, most notably Trump's success and Sanders' almost success.

    So your theories about global political trends are just like the rest of your posts - gibberish from your biased mind.

    Also it is cute to think that somehow by voting out of the EU, all this will change. That an English government will somehow be different than an EU one. But ah well, at least you can vote them out next time. Because that's what people always do, they change the party they vote for so much :rolleyes: You Brits are a funny people. Cry about being told what to do, but all it takes is the illusion of having a say and you are fooled.
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    (Original post by yudothis)

    Also it is cute to think that somehow by voting out of the EU, all this will change. That an English government will somehow be different than an EU one. But ah well, at least you can vote them out next time. .
    Oh yeah, because accountablity and voting people out is a meaningless right, not a fundamental of democracy.

    And the EU government will be less in our national interests, by design- here's something you may be unaware of -it makes Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto illegal to implement, EU law, that is how little power European governments have.

    Now, of course I am under no illusions that the elites all over support neoliberalism and globalism, and our whole media is hostile to Corbyn. But at least we don't have constitutional measures to make a legitimate manifesto popular with swathes of people impossible to legally implement. I am talking only of rail nationalisation here, but there are other elements like allowing only workers who are not trade union members over- this is the kind of faux 'progressivism' of the EU.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    No.

    What you fail to see is that many people are not actually against EU as much as against the establishment, and the establishment was mostly pro-EU. This is reflected in votes everywhere around the world, most notably Trump's success and Sanders' almost success.
    .
    The two are inextricably linked. Sanders and Trumps success was about labour flows, compressed wages, lost jobs, and industries and the neoliberalism and globalism, not to mention disempowerment and inequality, that the economic system is causing. The sense that peoples countries are just a patch of land to be exploited by global corporatists. The EU is undeniably linked to this, it has a history of legislating in favour of corporate monopoly, and being supportive of people in richer countries who want to exploit cheap labour, and it is the perfect institution to push this as we are given fake democracy and choices in our national elections, whilst the real power lies with the unaccountable and unelected. It is a cartel system.
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    Welcome to states lol
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    (Original post by yudothis)

    Also it is cute to think that somehow by voting out of the EU, all this will change. .
    Wrong, this is always the argument you people push.

    I know there is a good chance it wouldn't, when I voted. I also knew there was zero chance of doing ti through remaining, so whats better come chance, or none?
    Validating an established order to become even more powerful, complacent, contemptuous and corrupt, or not? Making a break for a long future of self-determination, or never doing it?

    It just a strawman, and a 'false dichotomy' type of argument to claim we were all voting on the basis of the promised land. I've been around long enough to know what politics is like, I'm cynical. It was authoritarianism, and no change, and validating establisment I loathe, for benefits which on anything other than the extreme short term are very dubious, or choosing something which couldn't possible be worse or lesser in sovereignty, and kicking establishment, yes.

    I wasn't going to side with a bunch of democracy haters who wanted the end of history and all arguments, when clearly their solutions are so flawed- the end of debate under any circumstances would be oppressive, creepy, totalitarian, but when it is one so flawed for multitudes i think we can tell who it benefits.

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