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B1055 – Education Bill 2016

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    Authoritarian, idealistic and unfair to those who want to work hard and get ahead in life.

    No.
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    Nay
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    And that's a nay from me ... Punishing people with talent and intelligence ... I Think people use the arguments against private schools and bring it into the debate about grammar schools , Why doesn't this bill ban private schools ? Grammar schools and private aren't much different , instead of punishing people who go to private or grammar schools you need to get rid of the stigma and make them accessible to everyone regardless of their background and a scheme should be set up by the government to allow the very brightest students gain entry into the top schools
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    And that's a nay from me ... Punishing people with talent and intelligence ... I Think people use the arguments against private schools and bring it into the debate about grammar schools , Why doesn't this bill ban private schools ? Grammar schools and private aren't much different , instead of punishing people who go to private or grammar schools you need to get rid of the stigma and make them accessible to everyone regardless of their background and a scheme should be set up by the government to allow the very brightest students gain entry into the top schools
    Private schools and grammar schools by their own very nature aren't supposed to be accessible by everyone, hence why certain members on the left are against them. Also, the best schools in the country tend to be state comprehensives.
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    Ihave to disagree with this, grammar schools should be given the freedom to choose. IF Not, then they are jus seconadries. Excuse the typos, my keyboard is not playing nicely ;L
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Nay,

    I took the 11 plus and failed by a hair length, I am not bitter about it. The reason I didn't get in was because I wasn't really that interested so when it came to preparing for the tests I was playing pokemon on my gameboy advance instead. At my primary school, the headteacher paid for her son's private tuition for a year prior to his 11 plus and he got in. I remember because she suggested to my mum that she should do the same for me.

    Grammar schools don't aid social mobility at the moment, the majority of grammar school students come from middle class families where parents can afford some private tuition to get their children in but can't afford a place for their children at a private school.

    There are many solutions to this issue, the best one that I can think of is to continue to build new grammar schools but include 11 plus preparation in comprehensive primary education to actually level the playing field without giving anyone a hand out.



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    Never thought I would agree with you.......
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Private schools and grammar schools by their own very nature aren't supposed to be accessible by everyone, hence why certain members on the left are against them. Also, the best schools in the country tend to be state comprehensives.
    Your last statement is wrong, there are no sound metrics that support your claim the best schools tend to be state schools. A common argument used is the age-old argument that the best 50 state schools have a higher number of average points per pupil at A-level than the best 50 private schools, using a graph the trend continuing for all numbers to 250. But this measure suffers from critical flaws, the obvious one is the best state schools tend to be selective schools, and there was a mere 522 private schools offering A-levels in the report. All that measure shows is the very best state schools can select the most intelligent children to teach those intelligent children to pass an exam. When the most intelligent children are being compared it is down to luck as to which schools the most intelligent children attend. If there is a good, selective state school in a middle class area where parents pay for lots of extra tuition, it is expected that selective schools will do well. Using the same schools the claims can be changed to put private schools ahead, if you take the first quartile, the 525 state schools finish with average A-level points per pupil scores of 784.8, where the 132 private schools have a score of 919.1 points per pupil. At the third quartile, this gives state schools an average of 648.1 points per pupil, and private schools an average of 753.0 points per pupil.

    The second flaw is what is being measured is not the right thing to measure, and the results are skewed. The most famous private schools in the country, whose pupils have huge success, refuse to publish their results for various reasons, for example, Eton. I would not be surprised if Eton's results outperformed the very best selective state schools, or the best private schools are not recorded because a growing trend is private schools shunning A-levels for the International Baccalaureate.

    Using A-level points per pupil to measure the worth of a school does not work because the measure is biased towards selective schools. The measure used should be an added value measure to record a child's progress in attainment over the years, however, this measure does not have widespread league tables created from it. The value added measures match what we see in the education of foreigners; it is common for Asian children to be sent to an independent school in Britain where they go from barely speaking English to studying at Oxbridge in seven years. If real-world attainment was a measure there would be one winner, the contacts, the unique skills, the experiences, and the extra-curricular supports in place in the private sector outclass the state sector which puts everything into exam results. It is no coincidence privately educated individuals dominate society when interview practice, public speaking, military discipline, management techniques, and life skills have been taught from the age of three.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Your last statement is wrong, there are no sound metrics that support your claim the best schools tend to be state schools. A common argument used is the age-old argument that the best 50 state schools have a higher number of average points per pupil at A-level than the best 50 private schools, using a graph the trend continuing for all numbers to 250. But this measure suffers from critical flaws, the obvious one is the best state schools tend to be selective schools, and there was a mere 522 private schools offering A-levels in the report. All that measure shows is the very best state schools can select the most intelligent children to teach those intelligent children to pass an exam. When the most intelligent children are being compared it is down to luck as to which schools the most intelligent children attend. If there is a good, selective state school in a middle class area where parents pay for lots of extra tuition, it is expected that selective schools will do well. Using the same schools the claims can be changed to put private schools ahead, if you take the first quartile, the 525 state schools finish with average A-level points per pupil scores of 784.8, where the 132 private schools have a score of 919.1 points per pupil. At the third quartile, this gives state schools an average of 648.1 points per pupil, and private schools an average of 753.0 points per pupil.

    The second flaw is what is being measured is not the right thing to measure, and the results are skewed. The most famous private schools in the country, whose pupils have huge success, refuse to publish their results for various reasons, for example, Eton. I would not be surprised if Eton's results outperformed the very best selective state schools, or the best private schools are not recorded because a growing trend is private schools shunning A-levels for the International Baccalaureate.

    Using A-level points per pupil to measure the worth of a school does not work because the measure is biased towards selective schools. The measure used should be an added value measure to record a child's progress in attainment over the years, however, this measure does not have widespread league tables created from it. The value added measures match what we see in the education of foreigners; it is common for Asian children to be sent to an independent school in Britain where they go from barely speaking English to studying at Oxbridge in seven years. If real-world attainment was a measure there would be one winner, the contacts, the unique skills, the experiences, and the extra-curricular supports in place in the private sector outclass the state sector which puts everything into exam results. It is no coincidence privately educated individuals dominate society when interview practice, public speaking, military discipline, management techniques, and life skills have been taught from the age of three.
    How about this for a metric?

    Its not letting me upload the picture I just took so I'll describe it you instead. If you were to look outside my living room window you'd see a big blue brick, that big blue brick is mossbourne community academy. For one, its non selective so anyone can go there, it's also free so anyone can go there. To fund a better school you'd have to do quite a but of travelling because its the best (in terms of results) school in Hackney.

    But there's more to a school than what results you get by the end of it, school is a time to fund yourself and build your character and to become an upstanding member of society. Being in a state comprehensive was a great thing for me, had I got into latymer (the grammar I almost attended) I'd not be the man I am today, I learnt that people are different to myself, and that being different is okay, I learnt that even though I wasnt as well off as some other people it didn't matter, I learnt that an education isn't a commodity but much rather a necessity.

    Nige, you probably could have done with a state comprehensive education yourself, that way you'd be less up yourself.


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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    How about this for a metric?

    Its not letting me upload the picture I just took so I'll describe it you instead. If you were to look outside my living room window you'd see a big blue brick, that big blue brick is mossbourne community academy. For one, its non selective so anyone can go there, it's also free so anyone can go there. To fund a better school you'd have to do quite a but of travelling because its the best (in terms of results) school in Hackney.

    But there's more to a school than what results you get by the end of it, school is a time to fund yourself and build your character and to become an upstanding member of society. Being in a state comprehensive was a great thing for me, had I got into latymer (the grammar I almost attended) I'd not be the man I am today, I learnt that people are different to myself, and that being different is okay, I learnt that even though I wasnt as well off as some other people it didn't matter, I learnt that an education isn't a commodity but much rather a necessity.

    Nige, you probably could have done with a state comprehensive education yourself, that way you'd be less up yourself.


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    That is a lovely story, dear, you tell it so nicely, my day has changed for the better, but your anecdotal evidence does not matter. In most measurable statistics private schools are ahead, the statistics state schools dominate are teenage pregnancies, drugs, violence, free school meals, and paper work. Private schools are a powerful force, you can claim state schools to be as good as you want them to be, but when private schools form the machine that churns out the majority of the next generation of senior politicians, academics, lawyers, and CEOs; the measure that matters is in favour of the private sector.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    That is a lovely story, dear, you tell it so nicely, my day has changed for the better, but your anecdotal evidence does not matter. In most measurable statistics private schools are ahead, the statistics state schools dominate are teenage pregnancies, drugs, violence, free school meals, and paper work. Private schools are a powerful force, you can claim state schools to be as good as you want them to be, but when private schools form the machine that churns out the majority of the next generation of senior politicians, academics, lawyers, and CEOs; the measure that matters is in favour of the private sector.
    It's not anecdotal, it's practical. Let's take a look at Hackney,
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/12/html/alevel_204.stm?compare=

    The best schools are all state
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    It's not anecdotal, it's practical. Let's take a look at Hackney,
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/12/html/alevel_204.stm?compare=

    The best schools are all state
    It is anecdotal, the league table in the link you provided does not include any private school because it is a league table of state secondary schools. The Mossbourne Community College you raise may have good results in Hackney, but it is an average school whose pupils will likely be on the lower steps of life's ladder.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    It is anecdotal, the league table in the link you provided does not include any private school because it is a league table of state secondary schools. The Mossbourne Community College you raise may have good results in Hackney, but it is an average schools whose pupils will likely be on the lower steps of life's ladder.
    It is a league table of all secondary schools. It just turns out that when state schools are properly funded they outperform independents.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    It is a league table of all secondary schools. It just turns out that when state schools are properly funded they outperform independents.
    That is not the case, there is no sound evidence that supports your claim, the evidence that supports your claim is A-level points per pupil when ignoring percentages by comparing 50% of private schools against the top 1% of selective state schools.
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    Perhaps you should put forward a bill about adults who can't spell having to go to compulsory school.

    In any case, hell no - I can think of a large number of people in the House who would most likely reinforce the need of grammar schools and selection.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    That is not the case, there is no sound evidence that supports your claim, the evidence that supports your claim is A-level points per pupil when ignoring percentages by comparing 50% of private schools against the top 1% of selective state schools.
    Except I just showed you evidence, you chose to ignore it as it doesn't help your case. When you look at it practically, i.e. I live in Hackney, and one day my kids will go school so I'll look at the league tables in my area and make my choice that way, at the moment the state schools here are massively outperforming all others. You send your kids to private school to buy them some good grades, you send your kids to state comp for them to learn. I'm by no means anti-private education and I haven't really ever been, should I be in a position to in the future I'll definitely invest in a private education for my children, it's just that on a practical scale properly funded state comps outperform.
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    Random input, but Mossbourne is a really good institution.
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    (Original post by TitanCream)
    Random input, but Mossbourne is a really good institution.
    There are plenty, if one good thing came out of new labour it was their investment into state education.

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    There are plenty, if one good thing came out of new labour it was their investment into state education.

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    Have to agree about that, my former secondary in Yorkshire was changed and the difference really was night and day, it went from an awful place with a dour reputation to a decent place with a good reputation.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Except I just showed you evidence, you chose to ignore it as it doesn't help your case. When you look at it practically, i.e. I live in Hackney, and one day my kids will go school so I'll look at the league tables in my area and make my choice that way, at the moment the state schools here are massively outperforming all others. You send your kids to private school to buy them some good grades, you send your kids to state comp for them to learn. I'm by no means anti-private education and I haven't really ever been, should I be in a position to in the future I'll definitely invest in a private education for my children, it's just that on a practical scale properly funded state comps outperform.
    The evidence you provided was a league table showing Mossbourne Community College at the top, the point I am making is that the league table you linked to did not include private schools. For your point to be true, you would have to find a league table for Hackney that includes private schools, or if there are no private schools in Hackney, you do not have a point to make because it is a case of Mossbourne Community College being the best of a bad group of schools.
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    So no one has an issue with students of the board of governors?
 
 
 
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