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My thoughts on brexit- anyone agree?

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    1: the UK has voted for brexit and as such we need to leave the EU and decrease immigration. The UK should try and get the best deal possible and trigger article 50 within the next two years.

    2: The EU as a political institution has a right to exist unless it is democratically disbanded. subsequently it has a right to preserve itself and its interests. Thus whilst it should hope to give a good deal to the UK it is quite legitimate in not doing something which it sees as jeopardiseing its future existence- The same way that an independent Scotland not being able to keep the £ etc is not constitutive that the UK hates Scotland but that the UK wishes to preserve itself and its interests and us not Biddej to potentially burden itself unduly in the name of goodwill.

    Although we disagree on much, this seems roughly to be the approach taken by our new PM

    Anyone else in agreement?
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    Agree except for the decrease immigration part. I think problems people face leading them to want reduced immigration can be fixed or nullified in other ways (or the problems have nothing to do with immigration).
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    immigration is pretty much just a scapegoat for all these people who are too dumb, patriotic and nationalistic to realise that the Tory government is responsible for half their problems
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    1: the UK has voted for brexit and as such we need to leave the EU and decrease immigration. The UK should try and get the best deal possible and trigger article 50 within the next two years.

    2: The EU as a political institution has a right to exist unless it is democratically disbanded. subsequently it has a right to preserve itself and its interests. Thus whilst it should hope to give a good deal to the UK it is quite legitimate in not doing something which it sees as jeopardiseing its future existence- The same way that an independent Scotland not being able to keep the £ etc is not constitutive that the UK hates Scotland but that the UK wishes to preserve itself and its interests and us not Biddej to potentially burden itself unduly in the name of goodwill.

    Although we disagree on much, this seems roughly to be the approach taken by our new PM

    Anyone else in agreement?
    Not really seeing what there is to disagree on? Isnt it a statement of the obvious.
    The PM has already indicated we are going to be in a position to neggotiate next year. They have made ideas that its less about decreasing and more about controlling.

    Your second point isnt it stating the obvious? The EU has a right to protect its interests? Who is going to disagree with that?
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    The real question is; who do we start blaming things on?

    Or will it still be Brussels for not giving us the deal we wanted/demanded?
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    (Original post by thickleftard)
    immigration is pretty much just a scapegoat for all these people who are too dumb, patriotic and nationalistic to realise that the Tory government is responsible for half their problems
    Labour governments were responsible for the other half?
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    (Original post by Pars12)
    Labour governments were responsible for the other half?
    That's besides the point. You'll also find that the tories were far worse if you did your research.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Not really seeing what there is to disagree on? Isnt it a statement of the obvious.
    The PM has already indicated we are going to be in a position to neggotiate next year. They have made ideas that its less about decreasing and more about controlling. ,

    Your second point isnt it stating the obvious? The EU has a right to protect its interests? Who is going to disagree with that?
    A number of people and politicians are opining that the EU is being hostile to us for not giving us what we want regardless of the cost to the EU in terms of survival and are presenting this as the EU hating Britain.

    This is not only wrong and damaging but also incredibly dangerous
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    Regarding immigration I agree, to an extent. But I think it has become so toxic an issue that any rational debate simply cannot take place at the present time- particularly with the rise of terrorism and the dismal failures in some areas of immigration policy.

    But of course as I think we will see the idea that cutting immigration is a magic bullet to higher wages is as credible as trickle down economics.
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    (Original post by fksociety)
    That's besides the point. You'll also find that the tories were far worse if you did your research.
    That's counterfactual thinking. How can you tell that the left would have done better if it had been in power? What research could you possibly draw on? China? Russia? New Labour?
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    A number of people and politicians are opining that the EU is being hostile to us for not giving us what we want regardless of the cost to the EU in terms of survival and are presenting this as the EU hating Britain.

    This is not only wrong and damaging but also incredibly dangerous
    Or is everybody just getting into position for a long and tricky negotiation? The people who voted Brexit must have seen that the EU would want to make an example out of Britain for leaving. The British would not be the British if they accepted that. The next stop will be trade tariffs. But will that be damaging? Economics is very good for explaining what happened but its predictive powers are pretty useless.
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    (Original post by Pars12)
    That's counterfactual thinking. How can you tell that the left would have done better if it had been in power? What research could you possibly draw on? China? Russia? New Labour?
    No, you just need to educate yourself.
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    (Original post by thickleftard)
    immigration is pretty much just a scapegoat for all these people who are too dumb, patriotic and nationalistic to realise that the Tory government is responsible for half their problems
    and you think Labour could fix the problem if in power lmfao?
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    (Original post by thickleftard)
    immigration is pretty much just a scapegoat for all these people who are too dumb, patriotic and nationalistic to realise that the Tory government is responsible for half their problems
    Agreed. However, it was a key factor in the referendum vote and as such the government will have to take it into account in the forthcoming negotiations.
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    (Original post by fksociety;)
    That's besides the point. You'll also find that the tories were far worse if you did your research.


    (Original post by fksociety)
    No, you just need to educate yourself.


    I can see you've really got the hang of this debating thing.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    A number of people and politicians are opining that the EU is being hostile to us for not giving us what we want regardless of the cost to the EU in terms of survival and are presenting this as the EU hating Britain.

    This is not only wrong and damaging but also incredibly dangerous
    Which ones? I havent seen it. I cnat see how anyone can argue with a one side in a negotiation deciding to protect its own interests. I havent seen anyone saying they musnt do that and must give in to all our demands at its own expense? Who is saying that?

    Why is it damaging (they will just ignore it) and why is it incredibly dangerous? it just sounds dumb.
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    Immigration is good for the economy


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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Regarding immigration I agree, to an extent. But I think it has become so toxic an issue that any rational debate simply cannot take place at the present time- particularly with the rise of terrorism and the dismal failures in some areas of immigration policy.

    But of course as I think we will see the idea that cutting immigration is a magic bullet to higher wages is as credible as trickle down economics.

    The controlling rather than reducing is what was said by the brexiters.

    You like to use flowery words, but you dont say much other than state the obvious. I really cant see your point.


    So your thoughts on Brexit are the UK should get the best deal it can and the EU will try and get the best deal it can, as though it were some kind of negotiation?
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    The whole thing's a bit silly really. I can bet my bottom dollar that the deal we get will efffectively be us remaining a part of the EU in all but name as we'll need to accept free movement of people to retain acces to the single market.

    How disappointed many of the xenophobic voters will be then.
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    (Original post by AdeptDz)
    Immigration is good for the economy


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    ... because it drives down wages. Globalisation is good for the economy for similar reasons ... but it seems to have made the rich/poor divide worse.

    Anyway, I thought this was about the free movement for EU citizens and whether it is sustainable. Why would there be any impact on non-EU immigration? I'm not sure about your premise because it involves some quite sharp accounting but I do agree that immigration has been a scapegoat.
 
 
 
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