Woman kicked out of Berlin cafe for breastfeeding

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    (Original post by alkyone)
    lol at breastfeeding being a modern idea... what do you think happened before formula milk? society should function for the greater good of its members. And whether the people offended like it or not, breastfeeding is the best thing a mother can do for the baby and to an extent, for the society as breastfeeding reduces occurance of diseases that would burden the society and the health system in the future. So let's weigh this out against "older people feel uncomfortable". Expressing milk using a pump is an idea, however it is not always practical as it takes ages to do, and should be stored in the fridge, so in a long day out this is not an option.*

    I don't know if you have actually ever seen a woman breastfeeding, but you can NOT see a boob or nipple, the baby covers it. You see more boobs on posters and advertisements. The exposure time is literally 1 or 2 seconds until the baby starts feeding. So to actually see an exposed boob, you would have to be looking for it.*
    You've not read carefully enough. Funnily enough, I wasn't stupid enough to suggest that breastfeeding is modern. I suggested that doing it in public is modern. You also are not understanding the concept behind my argument - it's got nothing to do with what you can and cannot see. It's to do with how it might make other people feel. Why should you automatically feel that your right to do something trumps other people's opinion and feelings around you? We don't all live as individual little bubbles, exercising our rights and to hell with anyone else. It's a balance of rights and responsibilities in a structured society.
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    You've not read carefully enough. Funnily enough, I wasn't stupid enough to suggest that breastfeeding is modern. I suggested that doing it in public is modern. You also are not understanding the concept behind my argument - it's got nothing to do with what you can and cannot see. It's to do with how it might make other people feel. Why should you automatically feel that your right to do something trumps other people's opinion and feelings around you? We don't all live as individual little bubbles, exercising our rights and to hell with anyone else. It's a balance of rights and responsibilities in a structured society.
    You know why it's modern? Because before formula milk women were meant to stay at home in their kitchens and look after their kids. At home. And unless you are sexist enough to suggest this should still be happening then your argument is invalid. And how you make people feel works both ways. Breastfeeding mothers don't need you to make them feel uncomfortable for doing the best for their child. Why do you automatically think that the mother's feelings are less important to the rest of the people? I guess my point is that when people are uncomfortable with something with no rational explanation as to why should not be done in public except "because I feel it's uncomfortable", then what we need is an attitude change, and not to isolate a whole group of people, kicking them out of cafes and stuff.
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    (Original post by alkyone)
    You know why it's modern? Because before formula milk women were meant to stay at home in their kitchens and look after their kids. At home. And unless you are sexist enough to suggest this should still be happening then your argument is invalid. And how you make people feel works both ways. Breastfeeding mothers don't need you to make them feel uncomfortable for doing the best for their child. Why do you automatically think that the mother's feelings are less important to the rest of the people? I guess my point is that when people are uncomfortable with something with no rational explanation as to why should not be done in public except "because I feel it's uncomfortable", then what we need is an attitude change, and not to isolate a whole group of people, kicking them out of cafes and stuff.
    Again, I didn't suggest that she should have been kicked out of a cafe, but you're not engaging with my argument so we'll leave it there. Thanks.
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    I breastfeed anywhere and everywhere.

    How do these people think their mothers fed them when they were babies? Formula wasn't always as cheap and well-stocked as it is nowadays.

    I find it uncomfortable when people crunch on ice in restaurants, swear and shout in public, argue with their spouses, eat loudly etc. Do I throw a hissy each time I see this? No. I channel my inner adult and just ignore it.

    PS - you're not naked when you breastfeed - the baby's head covers everything. I'm not trying to seduce your husbands and ruin your day with my exhibitionism - my dependent baby just wants some milk :-)
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    Again, I didn't suggest that she should have been kicked out of a cafe, but you're not engaging with my argument so we'll leave it there. Thanks.
    that's what happened in the story that is the original OP. I answered to your argument, you just choose to ignore it because you don't know how to answer. But yeah I guess let's just leave it to that and agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by alkyone)
    that's what happened in the story that is the original OP. I answered to your argument, you just choose to ignore it because you don't know how to answer. But yeah I guess let's just leave it to that and agree to disagree.
    Yes, we clearly have different opinions - it's not that I don't know how to answer (if it makes you feel superior to think that, then go ahead) but I see little point in continuing a discussion which is actually going in two different directions. Thanks.
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    The arguments against public breastfeeding on this thread are ridiculous. I used to see my mum breastfeeding my younger siblings and her friends breastfeeding their babies all the time when I was a kid. It seemed completely natural and appropriate until some weirdos told me that it was apparently sexual. Bare boobs are "hot" when a woman is sunbathing on the beach but "gross" when she is feeding her child, what nonsense! Just another method of attempting to control and completely sexualise women's bodies.
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    I think the real babies are the ones getting upset over a mother feeding her child in public.
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    (Original post by KnowledgeIsBest)
    Good. breastfeeding is acceptable, just not in public, it's like waking up in the morning naked, go straight out the door of your home, without brushing teeth, and having a shower, and going to a cafe naked, this is unacceptable.
    You know for someone whose username is 'KnowledgeIsBest', your analogies certainly aren't knowledgable or well-grounded; you've created a complete disanalogy so congrats.
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    You've not read carefully enough. Funnily enough, I wasn't stupid enough to suggest that breastfeeding is modern. I suggested that doing it in public is modern. You also are not understanding the concept behind my argument - it's got nothing to do with what you can and cannot see. It's to do with how it might make other people feel. Why should you automatically feel that your right to do something trumps other people's opinion and feelings around you? We don't all live as individual little bubbles, exercising our rights and to hell with anyone else. It's a balance of rights and responsibilities in a structured society.
    You are wrong here people's rights do trump everything that is why the cafe owner is within their rights kicking them out just like they can anyone else in Germany and it's how it should be here but the government likes to impede and give certain groups more rights.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    You are wrong here people's rights do trump everything that is why the cafe owner is within their rights kicking them out just like they can anyone else in Germany and it's how it should be here but the government likes to impede and give certain groups more rights.
    If you're opening your services to the public then don't cry when the law requires that you treat everyone equally. Might as well introduce segregation if businesses were allowed to do this.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    If you're opening your services to the public then don't cry when the law requires that you treat everyone equally. Might as well introduce segregation if businesses were allowed to do this.
    I apply this equally unlike the current law that only protects certain groups, it doesn't matter who does it I am willing to protect their beliefs rather than infringe on their freedom, I personally wouldn't do it but people should have the right to refuse to enter a legal relationship with someone.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I apply this equally unlike the current law that only protects certain groups, it doesn't matter who does it I am willing to protect their beliefs rather than infringe on their freedom, I personally wouldn't do it but people should have the right to refuse to enter a legal relationship with someone.
    The law does not allow discrimination against any group, I suggest you read the Equality Act. You can refuse to enter into a legal relationship with someone as long as you are not discriminating against them on the basis of a protected characteristic "sex, race, religion etc." If that wasn't the case then businesses might as well be allowed to put up signs saying "no LGBT allowed" and "Jews not wanted here", which would be regressive.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    The law does not allow discrimination against any group, I suggest you read the Equality Act. You can refuse to enter into a legal relationship with someone as long as you are not discriminating against them on the basis of a protected characteristic "sex, race, religion etc." If that wasn't the case then businesses might as well be allowed to put up signs saying "no LGBT allowed" and "Jews not wanted here", which would be regressive.
    How many businesses would actually do that?
    People have the right to express their belief even if it's wrong, do you support the authoritarian measures currently in place that stops people expressing their religious beliefs if they run a business? I do not.

    If someone openly believes being homosexuality should be illegal and gays should be killed should a gay owner be able to refuse to serve them? Even if it is the part of the religion the customer is a part of
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    (Original post by KnowledgeIsBest)
    1.Read my analogy.
    2. your wrong, people can look wherever they want.
    3. the problem is the person who is making the problem, in this case, it is people that breastfeed in public.
    4.sure its natural, that's not a good excuse to be half naked.
    4. the women can use the pump thing to take the milk out before she leaves the house.
    Now for a bit of education.

    It is very important that women feed their babies. It prevents digestive problems, it transfers resistance to diseases, it keeps babies' weight down. Cow's milk doesn't have the same composition.

    Women do not breast feed enough in this country - partly because of attitudes which tell them they are embarrassing others. There are few places when you are out and about where you can breast feed privately ie in a room with a comfortable seat where no one was likely to come in. I wouldn't know where to find one in my city for example.

    To breast feed a baby may take anything upto an hour. It is much, much slower than feeding a baby with a bottle.

    Once you have fed your baby you have no milk in your breasts. Therefore you cannot express any milk with a 'pump thing' and take it with you. It may take anything upto 3 hours to allow your breasts to fill again.

    Many breast fed babies won't feed from a bottle at all. So, where the mother goes, the baby has to go.

    Basic arithmetic. It takes an hour to breast feed a baby. Young babies need to be fed every 3-4 hours , possibly more often. This leaves the most organised mother, ready with a Le Mans start as soon as baby has finished feeding, with just 2 hours to get to town and back, buy her shopping, do errands etc. If her baby decides she needs feeding this time in under 3 hours because she just didn't have enough feed last time, then the mother has, willy nilly to feed her in town.

    In a sensible world no one would put obstacles in the way of a woman trying to do the best for her baby. If you don't like looking at a baby feeding at a breast, don't look. You'd have to be pretty eagle eyed to spot much breast tissue at all, anyway.
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    My opinion- it's private property, owner is allowed to do whatever he/she chooses. Also if people around her find her breast feeding uncomfortable, some may do, it;s in his best interest to try and appease this larger cohort of customer than keep the mother in the cafe. Nevertheless, it should not be something to find uncomfortable it's natural and should not be shunned. People will change their views sooner or later.
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    "Mothers should in Germany have the right to breastfeed their babies in public places, such as cafes and restaurants to be referenced without charging!”

    But are restaurants and cafes "public" places? They're not like parks.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    How many businesses would actually do that?
    People have the right to express their belief even if it's wrong, do you support the authoritarian measures currently in place that stops people expressing their religious beliefs if they run a business? I do not.

    If someone openly believes being homosexuality should be illegal and gays should be killed should a gay owner be able to refuse to serve them? Even if it is the part of the religion the customer is a part of
    There's no way of knowing for sure, but what we do know is that they would be allowed to do it. Yes, you have the right to express your own, personal beliefs but it's different if you choose to open your services to the public. The way that you conduct yourself while running a business isn't a private affair. If someone is so petty that they can't be professional and avoid discriminating against certain groups even though they know what the law is, they shouldn't be running a business. And people can express their religious beliefs just fine while running a business, as long as they are not using religion to justify discriminating against others.

    How will the owner know this though? Will he/she ask all customers what their beliefs are regarding homosexuality? Moreover, the customer is not the one running a business that is open to the public.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    The law does not allow discrimination against any group, I suggest you read the Equality Act. You can refuse to enter into a legal relationship with someone as long as you are not discriminating against them on the basis of a protected characteristic "sex, race, religion etc." If that wasn't the case then businesses might as well be allowed to put up signs saying "no LGBT allowed" and "Jews not wanted here", which would be regressive.
    Discrimination is everywhere, with Minority quotas and companies and other entities being pressured into having a "diverse workforce" forcing quotas on women or on black people.


    While I have no real problem with breastfeeding I do understand why people may feel uncomfortable and If I was in that position and I was a woman and had to breastfeed I would probably go into the toilet.
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    (Original post by ineedA)
    My opinion- it's private property, owner is allowed to do whatever he/she chooses. Also if people around her find her breast feeding uncomfortable, some may do, it;s in his best interest to try and appease this larger cohort of customer than keep the mother in the cafe. Nevertheless, it should not be something to find uncomfortable it's natural and should not be shunned. People will change their views sooner or later.
    I understand that from a business perspective it is best to make most customers happy. However this would never be an issue if the law protected breastfeeding mothers in private property as well. It relieves the pressure off the owner. As you say, there is a problem with people's views, and as long as breastfeeding mothers can be excluded from places, or it is not illegal to harass a breastfeeding mother, the problem will continue to propagate through generations. While if the legal system protects breastfeeding women, the younger generations that will grow up in this more inclusive society will likely be more accepting of breastfeeding, remove the stigma, and probably increase the proportion of women who opt to breastfeed in the future.
 
 
 
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