Why do the Bremoaners hate Britain so much?
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Original post by JamesN88
I lose interest in this debate when I hear talk of "freedom" and "independence".
We joined of our own free will and voted to leave of our own free will, as we were and will continue to be a free and independent country. We've simply opted out of a political/economic arrangement not fought a war of independence, the morons calling the EU a dictatorship should try researching about actual dictatorships and the suffering they have and continue to inflict on people.
We joined of our own free will and voted to leave of our own free will, as we were and will continue to be a free and independent country. We've simply opted out of a political/economic arrangement not fought a war of independence, the morons calling the EU a dictatorship should try researching about actual dictatorships and the suffering they have and continue to inflict on people.
I don't recall calling the EU a "dictatorship" and I don't think many other Leavers have either.
Arrogant, overweening, incompetent, corrupt, lacking in democratic legitimacy yes, but not a dictatorship.
They aren't efficient or organised enough.
We have never, throughout this whole Brexit debate, or here on this thread, heard a peep of the positive case for Europe. Of what are the benefits of staying rather than the risks of leaving.
The failed European "project" is an embarrassment even to the most fervent Remainers.
Everyone (throughout Europe, not just in the UK) knows the EU sucks willies.
I don't really understand people who think that Britain is possibly going to get any better after leaving (economically or socially).
Firstly, who will we trade with? The US has made it clear that they aren't interested in a trade agreement any time soon, and we don't have the negotiators to arrange trade agreements or the economic strength to arrange anything with other countries particularly quickly. If we want to trade with the EU, all of the goods will have to meet European standards. So where's the advantage in leaving?
The only way to gain an economic advantage (compared to pre-Brexit Britain) is to somehow make a trade agreement with countries outside the EU (who the EU doesn't already have trade agreements set up with) and then find a way to stay in the single market as well.
Secondly, immigration is going to become a nightmare. We'll have to find a way to enforce border controls (especially hard given that the Republic of Ireland has quite understandably refused to do it for us, meaning that there'll be a route into the country via Northern Ireland anyway) that allows access to the huge numbers of people that our economy and health services need.
If Britain is going to have anybody to trade with, that'll mean finding a way to stay in the single market and that is unlikely to happen without accepting free movement of people (which is altogether great for the economy and society, but is basically the same as being in Europe but without as many of the advantages)
I think that people need to remember that Britain is not economically special. There is no magical safety net for the pound, and other countries don't really seem to care about trading with us as we do about trading with them. If Britain leaves Europe (politically, that is. Fortunately it'll still be largely socially European) then people might see just how little respect the country's really got.
I am a little bit worried about some of the stuff that people have posted in this thread, mainly regarding the British Empire. Britain came into other countries, all around the world, and stamped all over their cultures, introduced widespread drug addition in China and then crushed religious and political dissent with political imprisonments and murders, and then started enslaving people. In terms of benefits for those being conquered, I would put the British Empire far below the Romans and Persians and above the Third Reich, around the same level as Stalin's USSR. Seriously, learn your history, people.
I'm sure that there will be people out there who imagine that Britain is somehow the best country in the world, that our Empire's mass killings and enslavements were all worthwhile and that immigrants are a problem for this country. I believe that these people are owed apologies by their politicians (and probably their education system as well).
tl;dr - Britain just another country, Empire bad, economy screwed.
Firstly, who will we trade with? The US has made it clear that they aren't interested in a trade agreement any time soon, and we don't have the negotiators to arrange trade agreements or the economic strength to arrange anything with other countries particularly quickly. If we want to trade with the EU, all of the goods will have to meet European standards. So where's the advantage in leaving?
The only way to gain an economic advantage (compared to pre-Brexit Britain) is to somehow make a trade agreement with countries outside the EU (who the EU doesn't already have trade agreements set up with) and then find a way to stay in the single market as well.
Secondly, immigration is going to become a nightmare. We'll have to find a way to enforce border controls (especially hard given that the Republic of Ireland has quite understandably refused to do it for us, meaning that there'll be a route into the country via Northern Ireland anyway) that allows access to the huge numbers of people that our economy and health services need.
If Britain is going to have anybody to trade with, that'll mean finding a way to stay in the single market and that is unlikely to happen without accepting free movement of people (which is altogether great for the economy and society, but is basically the same as being in Europe but without as many of the advantages)
I think that people need to remember that Britain is not economically special. There is no magical safety net for the pound, and other countries don't really seem to care about trading with us as we do about trading with them. If Britain leaves Europe (politically, that is. Fortunately it'll still be largely socially European) then people might see just how little respect the country's really got.
I am a little bit worried about some of the stuff that people have posted in this thread, mainly regarding the British Empire. Britain came into other countries, all around the world, and stamped all over their cultures, introduced widespread drug addition in China and then crushed religious and political dissent with political imprisonments and murders, and then started enslaving people. In terms of benefits for those being conquered, I would put the British Empire far below the Romans and Persians and above the Third Reich, around the same level as Stalin's USSR. Seriously, learn your history, people.
I'm sure that there will be people out there who imagine that Britain is somehow the best country in the world, that our Empire's mass killings and enslavements were all worthwhile and that immigrants are a problem for this country. I believe that these people are owed apologies by their politicians (and probably their education system as well).
tl;dr - Britain just another country, Empire bad, economy screwed.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by sek510i
I am a little bit worried about some of the stuff that people have posted in this thread, mainly regarding the British Empire... In terms of benefits for those being conquered, I would put the British Empire far below the Romans and Persians and above the Third Reich, around the same level as Stalin's USSR. Seriously, learn your history, people.
I am a little bit worried about some of the stuff that people have posted in this thread, mainly regarding the British Empire... In terms of benefits for those being conquered, I would put the British Empire far below the Romans and Persians and above the Third Reich, around the same level as Stalin's USSR. Seriously, learn your history, people.
If you seriously put the impact of the British Empire as "around the same level" as Stalin's USSR. then your opinion is objectively worthless.
"Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.
Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million.In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.In “Europe A History,”
British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties.Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, a Soviet politician and historian, estimated 35 million deaths.Even some who have put out estimates based on research admit their calculations may be inadequate.In his acclaimed book “The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties,”
Anglo-American historian Robert Conquest said: “We get a figure of 20 million dead [under Stalin], which is almost certainly too low and might require an increase of 50 percent or so.”
Quotes attributed to Stalin reflected his utter disregard for human life. Among other bons mots, he allegedly declared: “Death is the solution to all problems. No man -- no problem,” and “One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.”
In any case, if the figure of 60 million dead is accurate that would mean that an average of 2 million were killed during each year of Stalin’s horrific reign – or 40,000 every week (even during “peacetime”).Part of the problem with counting the total loss of life lies with the incompleteness and unreliability of Soviet records. A more troubling dilemma has to do with the fact that many some deaths – like starvation from famines – may or may not have been directly connected to Stalin’s policies.If the lower estimate of 20 million is the true number, that still translates into 1,830 deaths every single day.
Thus, Stalin’s regime represented a machinery of killing that history – excluding, perhaps, China under Chairman Mao Tse-Tung -- has never witnessed."
The British Empire was on a par with Stalin's USSR??
What are you smoking, my friend? Can I have some of it?
The historical ignorance of some posters on TSR has to be seen to be believed. Jesus.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by astutehirstute
The British Empire was on a par with Stalin's USSR??
What are you smoking, my friend? Can I have some of it?
The historical ignorance of some posters on TSR has to be seen to be believed. Jesus.
The British Empire was on a par with Stalin's USSR??
What are you smoking, my friend? Can I have some of it?
The historical ignorance of some posters on TSR has to be seen to be believed. Jesus.
Yes the British Empire was kinda like the USSR, utter dicks to civilians but far more racist and they brought technological and ideological innovations. Also if you include the military stupidity of both nations the British Empire was extremely racist in military thought believeing their non-white enemies were inferior due to this and would be beaten with great ease a mistake they made many times, compared to the USSR thinking the Finnish would be easily beaten and learning from that to never underestimate their enemy again something the British Empire never learned.
Also focusing on a small period of time comparing it to an Empire that lasted almost 300 years is a bit stupid, it'd be easier to compare the Roman Empire and the British Empire. Roman Empire was far better
if you get rid of the USSR the Russian state would be rather backward and its industry more so if you look at the five year plan which went quite well the main issue with the USSR was the Lysenkoism ideals which caused the great famine, also if you look at a lot of universities and SJWs they support Neo-Lysenkoism.
in the end the British Empire was pretty *****y most Empires if not all were pretty *****y you cant deny that however the British Empire has the lovely status of being worse then the German Empire by that i mean the second reich and not the third or first.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by astutehirstute
I don't recall calling the EU a "dictatorship" and I don't think many other Leavers have either.
I hardly think the now Foreign Secretary indirectly comparing them to the Third Reich could be considered as sowing the seeds of future cooperation.
Arrogant, overweening, incompetent, corrupt, lacking in democratic legitimacy yes, but not a dictatorship.
I assume you mean the commision who aren't directly elected but are appointed by member state's elected governments. The parliament who are directly elected have to approve each commission's appointment and also have the power to dismiss them from office if necessary with a majority vote, so the idea that the EU isn't democratic is a myth.
They aren't efficient or organised enough.
Bureaucracies rarely are.
We have never, throughout this whole Brexit debate, or here on this thread, heard a peep of the positive case for Europe. Of what are the benefits of staying rather than the risks of leaving.
Unrestricted business access to one third of the world's wealth and 53 trade deals with non-EU states(again another myth from the Leave campaign about them stopping us trading with the rest of the world.).
The failed European "project" is an embarrassment even to the most fervent Remainers.
The EU isn't perfect but it's a long way from a failure.
Everyone (throughout Europe, not just in the UK) knows the EU sucks willies.
One word; childish.
Original post by JordanL_
...........the people who vote to elect MEPs?
Which is to deliberately or otherwise miss the point about what the person you quoted was getting at.
Original post by astutehirstute
If you seriously put the impact of the British Empire as "around the same level" as Stalin's USSR. then your opinion is objectively worthless.
I was talking in terms of their morals, more than their death toll. Romans and Persians generally brought improvements in medicine and science (see Monty Python for further info, in Rome's case....), the British Empire brought new ways to kill, enslave and oppress a large proportion of the planet and Stalin killed ridiculous numbers of his own people in a bid to crush political dissent.
In short, I was arguing that the British Empire was better than the USSR, but not by a huge amount and definitely not (as you seemed to be suggesting earlier) a good thing.
It's also largely irrelevent to the brexit debate. Britain is no longer a huge international superpower, it's an increasingly isolated island with collapsing public services and a chaotic political situation.
Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to dismiss people's opinions as ''worthless''. It's not showing your debating skills in a particularly good light.
Original post by ckfeister
Ikr, a pro-EU guy from Italy I knew, pretty much hated me for voting out and is now at Cambridge then going back to Italy just because we left, before we left it was all good blah blah blah then when we left he panicked and talked down UK.
Try and muster a couple of brain cells together, add a splash of empathy, a sprinkle of compassion, and tell me, why do you think your Italian friend feels that way?
I'd be interested to see the reaction of some of the Brexiters, if Jeremy Corbyn won the next election and brought Labour in to power.
Would they accept the result, or would they be all over the internet running campaigns warning of how "Britain is finished" and banging on about every potential signal of economic downturn to say "I told you so".
Or would they show their love for Britain, by getting behind their new Prime Minister and making sure we all pulled together to make it a success...
Would they accept the result, or would they be all over the internet running campaigns warning of how "Britain is finished" and banging on about every potential signal of economic downturn to say "I told you so".
Or would they show their love for Britain, by getting behind their new Prime Minister and making sure we all pulled together to make it a success...
Original post by MagicNMedicine
I'd be interested to see the reaction of some of the Brexiters, if Jeremy Corbyn won the next election and brought Labour in to power.
Would they accept the result, or would they be all over the internet running campaigns warning of how "Britain is finished" and banging on about every potential signal of economic downturn to say "I told you so".
Or would they show their love for Britain, by getting behind their new Prime Minister and making sure we all pulled together to make it a success...
Would they accept the result, or would they be all over the internet running campaigns warning of how "Britain is finished" and banging on about every potential signal of economic downturn to say "I told you so".
Or would they show their love for Britain, by getting behind their new Prime Minister and making sure we all pulled together to make it a success...
Not quite sure how fair it is to use the anology of a political race for the European referendum, given how different they are.
My gripe with those who cannot get over brexit are their petty attacks on those who voted for it and bellitling of Britain whenever any negative press is released. Rather than discuss how now best to approach britains exit, they revel in a sense of arrogance, championing how their vote for remain is clearly superior than others, discounting any sense of democracy.
Its one thing to attack a party or its leader for a bad decision, but another to attack Britain and fellow inhabitants in such in the way some remain voters have.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Twinpeaks
Try and muster a couple of brain cells together, add a splash of empathy, a sprinkle of compassion, and tell me, why do you think your Italian friend feels that way?
boyfriend* and its because of his hard left wing views, he wants a United States of Europe.
Original post by blinin7
Its one thing to attack a party or its leader for a bad decision, but another to attack Britain and fellow inhabitants in such in the way some remain voters have.
Its one thing to attack a party or its leader for a bad decision, but another to attack Britain and fellow inhabitants in such in the way some remain voters have.
Brexiters have been attacking Britain and its fellow inhabitants for years.
They have been saying Britain is finished, Britain is becoming a third world country, we've lost our country, and as for attacking fellow inhabitants lets be honest it's not unheard of for some Brexiters to say that the non-UK born inhabitants of the UK are not welcome here and should go home...
But perhaps you don't regard non-UK born inhabitants of the UK as counting.
Original post by ckfeister
boyfriend* and its because of his hard left wing views, he wants a United States of Europe.
Why does the former necessarily imply the latter?
Original post by yudothis
Why does the former necessarily imply the latter?
yudothis and to show it was stronger than a " friendship " I think he got annoyed I voted out and slowly declined the relationship as things went down hill rapidly after, he knows what I think of left-wing ideologies.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ckfeister
yudothis and to show it was stronger than a " friendship " I think he got annoyed I voted out and slowly declined the relationship as things went down hill rapidly after, he knows what I think of left-wing ideologies.
That was not the question I asked.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
I'd be interested to see the reaction of some of the Brexiters, if Jeremy Corbyn won the next election and brought Labour in to power.
Would they accept the result, or would they be all over the internet running campaigns warning of how "Britain is finished" and banging on about every potential signal of economic downturn to say "I told you so".
Or would they show their love for Britain, by getting behind their new Prime Minister and making sure we all pulled together to make it a success...
Would they accept the result, or would they be all over the internet running campaigns warning of how "Britain is finished" and banging on about every potential signal of economic downturn to say "I told you so".
Or would they show their love for Britain, by getting behind their new Prime Minister and making sure we all pulled together to make it a success...
I asked the OP of this thread if he would have admonished the Brexit voters that would have reacted the same way he's admonishing leave voters for reacting had the vote gone the other way and he provided no answer.
Quite telling really. At least they accept the hypocrisy
Original post by astutehirstute
The referendum losers mystify me, they really do. Many of them are my own friends and family, I read witterings in the press and BBC on a daily basis, and yet I still can't grasp the mindset.
Many seem to actively want Brexit to fail, they are pulling for Britain post the referendum to collapse economically, diplomatically and financially. How stupid and self defeating is that? Do they care more about being proved right (in their own estimation) in a voting decision than the welfare of their country?
Why do they hate Britain SO much?
Many seem to actively want Brexit to fail, they are pulling for Britain post the referendum to collapse economically, diplomatically and financially. How stupid and self defeating is that? Do they care more about being proved right (in their own estimation) in a voting decision than the welfare of their country?
Why do they hate Britain SO much?
Honestly 5 months later and we are still labelling people Brexiteers and Bremainers!! We cannot be a divided country now!
Original post by Foo.mp3
By and large they are either:
A) Sheeple who sustain themselves on a not very rich diet of received wisdom and mainstream propaganda e.g. Project Fear
B) Self-hating igeologues
C) Too proud as to be able to overcome cognitive dissonance e.g. separating progressivism from Europe, Europe from the European ideal, the European ideal from the EU, and the EU from certain probabalistic worldly realities that mean that irrespective of its merits as an organisation up to the present, it is utterly doomed
A) Sheeple who sustain themselves on a not very rich diet of received wisdom and mainstream propaganda e.g. Project Fear
B) Self-hating igeologues
C) Too proud as to be able to overcome cognitive dissonance e.g. separating progressivism from Europe, Europe from the European ideal, the European ideal from the EU, and the EU from certain probabalistic worldly realities that mean that irrespective of its merits as an organisation up to the present, it is utterly doomed
Sounds exactly like a typical Brexiter.
Original post by Foo.mp3
What are we to infer from this, most compelling, of counter-arguments?
That you are a hypocrite.
Original post by sek510i
I was talking in terms of their morals, more than their death toll.
The death toll was a function of the morality of the USSR. Unless you believe that a regime murdering tens of millions of human beings is being morally neutral?
Original post by sek510i
Romans and Persians generally brought improvements in medicine and science (see Monty Python for further info, in Rome's case....), the British Empire brought new ways to kill, enslave and oppress a large proportion of the planet and Stalin killed ridiculous numbers of his own people in a bid to crush political dissent.
Romans and Persians generally brought improvements in medicine and science (see Monty Python for further info, in Rome's case....), the British Empire brought new ways to kill, enslave and oppress a large proportion of the planet and Stalin killed ridiculous numbers of his own people in a bid to crush political dissent.
The Roman Empire found new ways to kill, enslave and oppress a large proportion of the planet. Did the Monty Python movie not mention that?
It was also the crucible of western civilisation. Bringing the world a model of efficient government and administration, a ground breaking legal system, the marvellous Latin language which became the root of most of the languages in
Europe, the seminal culture of ancient Greece which it passed on to its colonies, astonishing public works for the time, Christianity, the list goes on and on.
The British Empire built and improved on these foundations, introducing a civilisation comparable to that of Rome, to the peoples of about a fifth of the planet's landmass.
Bringing the world a model of efficient government and administration (parliamentary democracy and an independent civil service, and the US political system which comes from British roots), an independent judiciary and legal system (arguably the best in the world) the marvellous English language (spoken by almost the the entire educated world as was Latin under Rome), the cultural legacies of Greece, Rome itself and then the European enlightenment which it passed on to its colonies, astonishing public works for the time, the list goes on and on.
I could spend all day enunciating what the British Empire bequeathed the world, the parliaments it created, the justice its system has delivered, the ideas it spread to less intellectually and technologically advanced societies, but since we are on a student website, I'll highlight one relevant to everyone here. If you look at a list of the best universities in the world you will find just about every one in the top twenty either British, or founded under the Empire, or following the British model.
John Harvard was British, so was Elihu Yale. Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth College, all founded under the British Empire. As were the best universities wherever we trod. In Canada, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, India. Everywhere.
By contrast what exactly is the USSR's legacy to the world? It proved Marxist Leninism didn't work I suppose. We now have a ring of countries in Eastern Europe and the Baltic which are economically backward compared to western Europe and have a visceral hatred of Russia. Is that an achievement?
What else did it do for the world exactly? Did it produce a John Locke? A Charles Darwin? An Adam Smith? An Isaac Newton?
Hardly, its key figures are men like Beria and Vyshinsky. Its legacy a one party police state with children being forced to inform on their parents and sending them to death camps. Of the intelligentsia of a conquered country massacred in the Katyn Forest to make it more pliable. Of maybe a million German women raped on the road to Berlin.
To give an equivalence to the legacy of (on balance) a force for mankind's great benefit and a fascist, totalitarian dictatorship predicated on the murder of tens of millions and the complete subjugation of those it didn't kill, would be laughable were it not so offensive.
Original post by sek510i
Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to dismiss people's opinions as ''worthless''. It's not showing your debating skills in a particularly good light.
Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to dismiss people's opinions as ''worthless''. It's not showing your debating skills in a particularly good light.
It was not a debating point. If you don't "appreciate" your views being described as utterly worthless utter something of worth.
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