American student wondering about FY1 market...

Hi all! I'm quite new here so please excuse me if this has been asked before! I'm an American student currently completing my undergraduate degree in the US, and I'm hoping to pursue my medical degree in the UK. I've searched all over, but can't seem to find any recent first-hand information about the market for post-graduate training in the UK right now.

I keep reading news about doctor shortages and the NHS being forced to hire foreign-trained physicians, but simultaneously there seem to be ongoing NHS cuts and lay-offs...

Overall I guess my questions are: is it very difficult to get into FY1 right now? Perhaps it's more difficult in some areas than others? What is the state of specialty training? I'm specifically interested in neurology - is there immense competition in that field currently?

Reply 1

Caponester

Original post by bluejay96

Overall I guess my questions are: is it very difficult to get into FY1 right now? Perhaps it's more difficult in some areas than others? What is the state of specialty training? I'm specifically interested in neurology - is there immense competition in that field currently?

Are you mad? Stick with the US or Canada.

1. If you do your medical degree in the UK then, currently, you will be classified as a 'home' student for the purposes of applying to the foundation programme (I say 'currently' as there is a lot of uncertainty created by Brexit)

2. Foundation programme is always slightly oversubscribed but every applicant from UK medical schools has thus far secured a job even if they need to wait until later in the application process (i.e. 100% employment). Seeing as you'll be a graduate, chances are you would have no problem securing an FY1 job (more points awarded for those with an additional degree to medicine)

3. If by areas do you mean geographical areas? If so, then yes. London has historically been difficult to get into and most large cities in the UK tend to require higher scoring applicants. Haven't seen or heard figures for this year yet but London will likely still be the most difficult place to get into training with Scotland becoming more popular and Northern Ireland remaining about the same

4. Specialty training applications (i.e. proportion of people who complete foundation training applying directly into specialty training) are actually temporarily decreasing due to low satisfaction with working conditions, contract, morale etc (read; voting with our feet). Certain specialties are historically more difficult to get into than others but I wouldn't have any figures at hand

5. To do neurology you will need to do 2 years of core medical training after your foundation training. This will not be that difficult to get into. It's when applying to dedicated neurology training after that competition heats up. It will depend on where you want to train as a neurologist and many other factors that you won't be able to do anything about until you get here and start medical school

Reply 2

bluejay96

First off, thank you so much for the detailed response! I've been trying to find such information for a long time and thank goodness I stumbled upon this forum!

Original post by Caponester

Are you mad? Stick with the US or Canada.

But what makes you say so?

Reply 3

ForestCat

Original post by bluejay96

First off, thank you so much for the detailed response! I've been trying to find such information for a long time and thank goodness I stumbled upon this forum!

But what makes you say so?

Because America and Canada tend to value their Doctors.

Plus if you're going to pay the kind of fees that internationals have to, you might as well pay for American med school and stay in America where you would actually stand a chance of recouping that kind of money.

Reply 4

bluejay96

Original post by ForestCat

Is it truly much worse? I was under the impression that once you account for all the additional expenses of being a doctor/citizen in the US, the salary difference comes out to be rather small...

FY1 & FY2 salaries do look much lower, but it seems to rise quite a bit for consultants (at least according to google). Is that a rather lengthy/difficult process?

Reply 5

ForestCat

Original post by bluejay96

Yes, the training programme for specialities is a lot longer here than America. From finishing fy2, you can be looking anywhere from 5-8 years, not including time out for PhDs/research which is increasingly necessary for certain specialities. So it can be a decade post medical school before you're a consultant.

There are a lot of expenses here too. Indemnity insurance, exam fees, union membership etc.

Seriously, stick to the States (unless Trump gets in to power then I can perfectly understand wanting to escape).

Reply 6

bluejay96

Original post by ForestCat

Hm... disappointing, I admit :frown:

I have wanted to move to the UK for quite some time now.. hoped it wouldn't put me at too much of a disadvantage career-wise.

Well, thank you for the prompt responses, anyway!

Anyone else who may be reading this thread, please feel free to contribute! :smile:

Reply 7

ForestCat

Original post by bluejay96

Hm... disappointing, I admit :frown:

It depends why you want to move to the UK really.

I will say, medicine in the UK is going to be pretty turbulent for the foreseeable future. Read around junior doctor contracts, the plan for 4 years of service post qualification, read about Jeremy Hunt. Really read up on career progression here. And then decide if its something that you would actually want to sign up for.

I don't think you'll find many, if any, medics recommend you come here rather than stay in America.

Reply 8

MonteCristo

It is easier to get into medical school in the UK than the US where there is more pressure on places. Although medical schools will claim otherwise, you will be at an advantage as they will charge you international student fees. Most UK medical degrees are 5 years long but you are eligible for the accelerated 4 year programmes because you will already have completed a degree.

Getting FY1/FY2 jobs after a UK medical degree should be relatively easy. Junior doctors in the UK are paid more than US residents typically earn. If you've found otherwise then that might be because the £GBP has fallen >20% against the $USD since we voted for economic self-immolation in the EU referendum in June. This might change if we see President Trump take office next week!

Junior doctors in the UK work long hours but nothing like they do in the US. The downside is that postgraduate training takes much longer (e.g. emergency medicine 3 years in the US and 8 years in the UK; surgery 5 years in the US and 10 years in the UK) and so you earn a resident's salary for much longer. NHS consultants also earn much less on average than specialists in the US.

My advice would be to (1) apply to UK medical schools (if you want to spend some time in the UK and/or have another option in case your US applications are unsuccessful) and (2) sit the USMLE alongside US students during medical school. You can then decide in a few years time whether you want to remain in the UK or apply for residencies in the US.

Reply 9

nexttime

There's a lot of dissatisfaction among doctors atm. Historically there was a lot of goodwill to the NHS, but in the last year that's completely flipped, with the Department of Health seemingly declaring war on doctors, ignoring concerns, belittling and insulting doctors as a whole for political gain. Suddenly everyone's looking for a way out. The fact that you want to enter does seem odd yes :p:

I think the two most important things for you are:

1) If Jeremy Hunt implements his ten years conscription rule (i.e. once you start med school you aren't allowed to work outside of the uk for 10 years) then I would have major major concerns and frankly advise you to not train here no matter your motives. This has been done because he anticipates working conditions being so bad that everyone leaves soon after they graduate.
You will most likely be exempt as an international (enforcement was going to be by making hoe students pay international fees, which you've already done...), but bear in mind what this implies about working conditions. Leading onto my next point...

2) Take the USMLE alongside your med school exams. Its expensive and hard work, but leaves North America open to you. Perhaps even tailor your med school choice to this option - I think it'll be important. Without that exam you literally won't ever be able to work in the US. You can take it later but it involves a lot of basic science you will have forgotten so its much harder.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 10

val010104

first of all, if you are in it for the money then it's not a good place to go for the salary compared to the USA, although every year the salary goes up. If you are interested in it for actually helping people then lots of hospitals do fy1 and fy2 training years. it is a lot of stress in the medical field in the UK due to the financial stress in hospitals that's why most UK students go abroad after their 4 years x