TSR Religion census

loadmalz

Yes. The thing is that, dismissing some random theory by some guy who was probabally high when he/she wrote it isn't as ignorant as actually believing it. But to automatically dismiss it without actually proving it wrong is ignorant, in my opinion.

Technically, it's a catch 22, you lose either way haha.

You see, I would declare myself agnostic, in some ways - for sure, I can't prove there's not gods etc. I just think the argument for the existence of gods/God/whatever holds as much water as the argument for the existence of witches and wizards. And I don't feel the need to say that there's an equal chance that a person is a wizard as he is not...

I'm not anti-religion, generally. I don't, however, comprehend how thinking people (I'm not dismissing the theists here - I know there are intelligent religiousoes) can believe all of it, without anything that I've ever come across to prove (or even suggest) the existence of whatever they're worshipping.

Reply 66

Andrey

TML

Because they believe that God exists through evidence.

What evidence would that be?

The Bible or any holy book for that matter is only evidence of the fact that people wrote it, and that they believed what they wrote, claims of divine inspiration do not equal proof either, so what evidence would that be?

the theist could hide under the claim that God does not submit to logic

A silly, silly tactic, I could say that fairies and pink unicorns do not submit to logic either, outside of the realm of reason lies the realm of madness

How can you claim to know the truth?

I don't , but I claim that the truth can be found out. When an person becomes an agnostic, they think that it is impossible to find the truth, that we cannot tell. I using similar thinking processes think that the truth is there, and one can tell, it is merely a matter of time reason and effort.

So how can the gnostic be so sure?

The exact same way the agnostic is so sure actually. We look at the amount of beliefs, philosophies, theologies, all contradicting each other, and then decide whether in that pile of books, or within our own minds can lay hidden the truth to the god matter. The agnostic looks at the pile and thinks its not possible, either one is limited by the capacity of the human mind, or by the sheer amount of information, or by other reason, th gnostic looks at the pile and thinks hell yeah, its here somewhere, or science will eventually find it.

even appearing above logic, arguably.

Lets not go there, a silly silly tactic as stated above

I do believe that an objective truth exists amongst our subjective opinions of reality

That makes you a gnostic too :wink:

I don't believe we can ever get that 100% certainty to prove or disprove a deity.

Perhaps, but who knows. Personally I think that we as a race will eventually move on from the ideas of God formed in our ancient history, and understand a different idea of "God" one closer to what Einstein proposed, and be able to rationally justify it to ourselves

As for disproving a God, it is not really all that difficult. "God" is an idea, and all one needs to do is disprove the works of the authors to disprove the content of their works. Reductio ad absurdum works spectacularly well, its a way of assuming what the author wrote, and destroying it via inner contradictions from the inside out. Asking for proof as a way of establishing the difference between fact and fiction is a good way to go as well.

Reply 67

ixivxivi

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof

TML

ixivxivi

That was in response to Libertin du Nord's comment about o-e-s-j's sig, which seemed to suggest he thought having faith in science was in some way dodgey.

And yes, since theism seems to be basically nuts, I'd say that might allow it to be classed as illogical, to my mind.

Don't use terms you don't understand. There is nothing illogical regarding faith. The argument for religion is valid, admittedly with uncertain premises [questionable soundness]. In fact, I've yet to see a compelling argument for faith being even irrational. I speak as an atheist. Furthermore, faith and science are perfectly reconcilable. Christians and other theists can believe in evolution and the Big Bang whilst believing in God. The early Church even embraced the Big Bang theory with open arms.

The very fact that most Christian philosophers put God within logic suggests that we can approach religion through logic.

Hmm, really? Go on - give me a good, logical argument for God-existence.

Reply 68

UniOfLife

12

Compare and contrast:

ev·i·dence (ěv'ĭ-dəns) n.
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.

proof (prōōf)
n.
1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

Reply 69

Robob

17

Andrey

Perhaps, but who knows. Personally I think that we as a race will eventually move on from the ideas of God formed in our ancient history, and understand a different idea of "God" one closer to what Einstein proposed, and be able to rationally justify it to ourselves

Einstein didn't propose a god ^o)

Reply 70

It was inevitable that most of us will be atheistic - TSR has on average a more intelligent and educated populace than the country/world in general.

Reply 71

Robob

17

Yes, but there are a ****load of stupid atheists, TSR demonstrates this perfectly.

Reply 72

UniOfLife

12

Mensan1

It was inevitable that most of us will be atheistic - TSR has on average a more intelligent and educated populace than the country/world in general.

And perhaps a higher percentage of arrogant and narrow-minded folk too?

Reply 73

Of course there are. I was talking about 'averages' though.

Reply 74

UniOfLife

And perhaps a higher percentage of arrogant and narrow-minded folk too?

Nah I doubt it, but maybe. I would have thought that there was some correlation with intelligence/education levels and open-mindedness because these people know that they don't know everything. Not so sure about the obtuse though.

Reply 75

dan

Mensan1

It was inevitable that most of us will be atheistic - TSR has on average a more intelligent and educated populace than the country/world in general.

Even if you don't believe, it's pretty lame to diss their faith just because you think it's illogical.

Reply 76

UniOfLife

12

Mensan1

Nah I doubt it, but maybe. I would have thought that there was some correlation with intelligence/education levels and open-mindedness because these people know that they don't know everything. Not so sure about the obtuse though.

I was actually referring to you, I'm afriad. The arrogance and narrow-mindedness required to imply with certainty that all intelligent and educated people must be atheist is what I was referring to.

Reply 77

dangle

Even if you don't believe, it's pretty lame to diss their faith just because you think it's illogical.

Why is it lame? If someone believes in nonsense then it should be called nonsense. What is it about faith that almost exempts it from being looked at with a critical eye?

Reply 78

UniOfLife

I was actually referring to you, I'm afriad. The arrogance and narrow-mindedness required to imply with certainty that all intelligent and educated people must be atheist is what I was referring to.

Well this is just horrendous infering on your part. If i said or implied in anyway that all intelligent people must be atheists then it would be fair to call me arrogant, deluded and pretty stupid too. But please, oh please, quote me saying something remotely like that....

I think you'll find me saying or implying that there is a correlation between being atheistic and intelligent and that it was always going to show up on TSR's poll.

Reply 79

dan