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% of LL.B students getting a first

Yesterday NDGAARONDI pointed me to some very interesting statistics on the UCL website:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/registry/Division/General/statistics/s02/

It shows that in 2002-03 4% of law degrees awarded were firsts. The most interesting finding of these stats seems to be the extremely low proportion of firsts awarded compared to other subjects, which seem to average at around 20%. I don't think this is unique to UCL, as the situation is very similar at my uni (Birmingham), and several other top unis of which I'm aware.

What are your thoughts on this? There are reports of grade inflation in degrees with more firsts being awarded. Has this affected law degrees, or not? If it hasn't then should law degrees follow suit so that the achievements of LL.B students are recognised equally? Or is there no need, since employers will realise that getting a first in law is more of an achievement in other subjects? Do they even think this? Alternatively, are students of other subjects simply more capable? Or is law harder, and so meeting the equivalent standard of excellence in the subject is inevitably rarer?

These are just some of the questions that spring to my mind. I haven't yet thought it through properly, and to be honest, I simply don't know the answer to many of these questions. I thought I'd post here to see what other people think.

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Reply 1
muncrun
What are your thoughts on this? There are reports of grade inflation in degrees with more firsts being awarded. Has this affected law degrees, or not? If it hasn't then should law degrees follow suit so that the achievements of LL.B students are recognised equally?


I was already aware of these stats and i think they will cause employers to regard law degrees from certain institutions with more prestige, thus making it harder for students graduating from other unis to find a TC.

muncrun
Or is there no need, since employers will realise that getting a first in law is more of an achievement in other subjects? Do they even think this?


Many top law firms already hand out a bonus between £500 and £1500 to students gaining a 1st.
Reply 2
Law is harder to get a first in because you have to develop a critical legal style which can be very difficult, and changes from topic to topic.

Also, the sheer amount of work you have to do to get a first in Law is immense, because you have to know things that even your lectures might not, particularly case law.

So of course its hard, but if even only 3% get 1sts it shows it must be possible!
tkfmbp
Also, the sheer amount of work you have to do to get a first in Law is immense, because you have to know things that even your lectures might not, particularly case law.


Surely resources help you in this situation? I've used case law which my college lecturer didn't know :tongue:
Reply 4
NDGAARONDI
Surely resources help you in this situation? I've used case law which my college lecturer didn't know :tongue:


Exactly, this is not hard to do given the vast amount of case law available.
Dajo123
Exactly, this is not hard to do given the vast amount of case law available.


I think it's knowing where to look other than your set textbooks. There are plenty of resources that I've used and I am not that equipped as a university student as I don't have Athens etc.

Even the Law Reports website, BAILII and Google News have given me information which other resources have not. Sometimes they might even have information which is not in university textbooks. For example, I learnt that the ACHL hear motions regarding to Parliament and heard of the human rights case ADT v UK to reflect on a jurisprudential principle for my essay on non-fatal offences agains the person.
Reply 6
NDGAARONDI
I think it's knowing where to look other than your set textbooks. There are plenty of resources that I've used and I am not that equipped as a university student as I don't have Athens etc.

Even the Law Reports website, BAILII and Google News have given me information which other resources have not. Sometimes they might even have information which is not in university textbooks. For example, I learnt that the ACHL hear motions regarding to Parliament and heard of the human rights case ADT v UK to reflect on a jurisprudential principle for my essay on non-fatal offences agains the person.


I have been using the LRC at Kingston University, its just down the road and strangely enough you do not require ID to gain entry.......
Reply 7
tkfmbp
Law is harder to get a first in because you have to develop a critical legal style which can be very difficult, and changes from topic to topic.

Also, the sheer amount of work you have to do to get a first in Law is immense, because you have to know things that even your lectures might not, particularly case law.


I suppose you're right in that there are a wide range of styles to develop in law, from jurisprudence to the tax modules; from constitutional law to contract law. I can't think of another subject that embraces such a wide variety of critical styles.

I also agree that this is what makes law harder. How difficult is it to be able to think in one way for one exam, and then swap hats for another exam that same afternoon?! Few people have the talent for this - therefore explaining why there are so few firsts.

But here's another question: why have the number of firsts increased in other subjects, but not in law?
Reply 8
muncrun
But here's another question: why have the number of firsts increased in other subjects, but not in law?


Maybe because with the passage of time the Law becomes ever more complex......
Reply 9
Dajo123
Maybe because with the passage of time the Law becomes ever more complex......


This is true. 100 years ago there was very little international law, no EU, and simpler criminal laws, tax laws etc. 200 years ago there was hardly such a thing called contract law, and equity was a very fluid notion. Was it easier then? I wouldn't have thought so. Without such things as photocopiers or computers I'd struggle with the workload of half what I have now.

I wonder what law will be like in 100 years' time.
Reply 10
muncrun
I wonder what law will be like in 100 years' time.


Its scary if we look at the amount of regulations, delegated legislation, terrorism acts and EU law being created at the moment. I think the law in 100yrs will be very very confusing indeed.
It depends if and when Parliament will be made a stronger body as well and if any constitutional principles become the centre point of politics.
Reply 12
Dajo123
Its scary if we look at the amount of regulations, delegated legislation, terrorism acts and EU law being created at the moment. I think the law in 100yrs will be very very confusing indeed.


Yes - it's getting quite concerning. The 4000 or so regulations that come out of Parliament each year are subject to very little scrutinisation. Have you heard of Henry VIII clauses? Very scary.
Reply 13
NDGAARONDI
It depends if and when Parliament will be made a stronger body as well and if any constitutional principles become the centre point of politics.


In the current climate I can't see a government (of any party) putting constiutional principles over their political concerns.
Reply 14
NDGAARONDI
It depends if and when Parliament will be made a stronger body as well and if any constitutional principles become the centre point of politics.


Are you for or against a codified entrenched constitution?
Reply 15
Dajo123
Are you for or against a codified entrenched constitution?


I'm for. Much of the constitution used to be kept in balance by a mutual respect between the constitutional powers. These days there seems to be very little respect, particularly from the executive. This, and the effective domination that the executive has over the legislature, leads me to think that a codified constitution is crucial for preserving the essential consitutional principles which hold our constitution together.
muncrun
I'm for. Much of the constitution used to be kept in balance by a mutual respect between the constitutional powers. These days there seems to be very little respect, particularly from the executive. This, and the effective domination that the executive has over the legislature, leads me to think that a codified constitution is crucial for preserving the essential consitutional principles which hold our constitution together.


Which could be a reason for changing your political stance. You know you sound like a reformer :rolleyes:
Reply 17
NDGAARONDI
Which could be a reason for changing your political stance.


Why's that? :confused:
Reply 18
muncrun
I'm for. Much of the constitution used to be kept in balance by a mutual respect between the constitutional powers. These days there seems to be very little respect, particularly from the executive. This, and the effective domination that the executive has over the legislature, leads me to think that a codified constitution is crucial for preserving the essential consitutional principles which hold our constitution together.


I agree. The HR Act is a poor excuse for a constitution.
muncrun
Why's that? :confused:


It was a light hearted joke about the Conservatives not wanting to change anything and conserve what already exists.

Also think of devolution :wink:

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