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UKL Theological Society

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So who here is actually religous and who just likes talking about it? Me I can't get my head around how difficult religious texts are to read, I can't seem to find the right sort of mindset to read them in. What role do religous texts (Bible, Qur'an etc) play your life?

Reply 21

NathanL

Can I join? I'm a 2nd year theology student from Chester uni...

Nathan :smile:

Reply 22

Scottus_Mus

Hey all! Welcome to the TSR Theological Society! Sadly this society has been longly neglected, mainly due to lack of forum interest but hopefully now we've got some new members we'll be able to have some nice discussions and debates :smile:

Before I can add the society to the official list we need a logo to display! I think it’s only fair that as a group we choose it between ourselves. Does anyone have any suggestions?

If anyone has any ideas of logos then just post them on here so we can decide amongst ourselves which we prefer!

Thanks,

Scotty :smile:

Reply 23

JHutcher

Calvin

I am religious but love debating religion to, for me its as much about the academic discipline as it is about the personal faith.

As for religious texts, i have to be with you on that. Being a purist i wouldn't want to read the Qu'ran in anything but arabic... but May i suggest that its read in the way the tradition would have it read... for example i think the bible is best explored as a preached text.

Reply 24

JHutcher

NathanL

Can I join? I'm a 2nd year theology student from Chester uni...

Nathan :smile:

ooo i would love to know what its like... with any luck i am going up to cambridge to study my first year of theology in the autumn.

Reply 25

JHutcher

Scottus_Mus

symbol might be difficult because of the braod nature of the subject... perhaps a funky text logo

*prods thread*

Dr Frank Furter has, unfortunately, left us...

No doubt he would have been an asset to the society.

Reply 28

Calvin

JHutcher

Thats interesting. Why do you think that's the best way to do it? I mean, what is the aim in mind?
My problem with Religous texts is that I always approach them with a critical attitude and they just don't live up to the sort of rigour I expect- particularly after reading so much philosophy etc. I want them to convince me and all they seem to do is make lots of wild claims. Perhaps my expectations are wrong- perhaps the bible etc is something preaching to the converted and I'm looking in the wrong place for my conversion? So where should one look? Should I rather look at the attitudes and beliefs of a religion, find them admirable and then want to join? But how can that make me believe?
I just find the whole thing a little difficult to understand.

Reply 29

Socrates

My problem with Religous texts is that I always approach them with a critical attitude and they just don't live up to the sort of rigour I expect- particularly after reading so much philosophy etc. I want them to convince me and all they seem to do is make lots of wild claims. Perhaps my expectations are wrong- perhaps the bible etc is something preaching to the converted and I'm looking in the wrong place for my conversion? So where should one look? Should I rather look at the attitudes and beliefs of a religion, find them admirable and then want to join? But how can that make me believe?

I think reading them with the critical attitude is right, I do that too, but you can't just read it and expect to understand of your own accord. A good teacher/lecturer/guide is always helpful.

Reply 30

Diachrom

I do Religious Studies to A2, even thoguh I'm an atheist. I'm sure it would be fun t join and make cynical remarks, like I do in most of my work...

And for the symbol, obviously each faith has it's own symbol, but how about something generic like a light beam shining through a cloud? It doesn't directly suggest God, but has a religious experience air to it - Buddhists and other miscellaneous denominations would get angry the suggestion of God you see...

Reply 31

JHutcher

Calvin

I suggest its the best way because thats how they were supposed to be read.

Although a critical reading can be helpful, most texts do not stand up to criticism because they are written for believers... it'd be like reading a book on faries really.

But the real debate of religion rests with the question of Gods existence... which can be more convincing by knowing religious social teaching.

For me a Christian life (a genuine one) is a good life regardless of Gods existence... for me this represents part of a universal truth that we should abide by above all else... this in itself suggests God.

Basically it all comes down to whether or not you believe that Gods existence is possible.

Reply 32

Calvin

So religion is fundamentally about being a good person?
But then... why do you need a book to do that? Is belief in god a necessary part of being a good person?

Reply 33

JHutcher

Calvin

So religion is fundamentally about being a good person?
But then... why do you need a book to do that? Is belief in god a necessary part of being a good person?

umm well for the religious... then God and religion provides both an explanation as to why we should be good as well as attempting to find out exactly what the source of good is and what it is.

For be as a christian, its about fullfilling the will of God, and my life is about listening and attempting to follow the promptings of conscience, guided by scritpure... that i hold as truth.

Justin

Reply 34

JHutcher

societies die because people don't post :frown:

Reply 35

Calvin

Hopefully an enjoyable puzzle...

1. God is perfect
2. Being perfect is to have all the perfections
C1. So God has all the perfections.
3. It is better to be happy than to be sad.
C2. Therefore God is perfectly happy.
4. To want something and fail to get it is saddening.
5. To fail to get something good is detrimental.
6. God wants my love.
7. It is good for me to love God.
C3. My love is a good thing for God to have.
9. I do not love God.
C4. God is not perfectly happy. *Contradiction with C2*
C5. God does not have some good thing.
C5a. God is diminished by not having my love. *Contradiction with 1.*

Therefore God is not perfect.

Two arguments there, "God is unhappy" and "My love is a good thing which God doesn't have". Both concluding that God is not perfect.

I doubt anybody is convinced. So where's the problem? :smile:

Reply 36

Reema

"Being perfect is to have all the perfections". Well, not necessarily. It depends on the way in which we define God - and the context of perfection in that sense. For example, God doesn't have the perfection of a circle. But then the word perfect in the religious sense is usually used to connote moral perfection et al.

"It is better to be happy than to be sad". Well yes, but that doesn't necessitate that happiness is a "perfection". And even if it was a perfection, would it make sense to talk of God using attributes such as happiness/sadness - in the same way as it would make sense to talk of God using the attribute of a perfect circle?

"It is good for me to love God". That follows that it is good for God that I love God...
At least, I don't think it is a necessarily good thing for God that I love God. Plenty of religions don't think that - and preach that God is not dependent on humans.

Another thing is that - "God wants my love". Maybe, maybe not. What about rephrasing it to - "God wants my freely-given love". If we then look at the notion of free will within religion, perhaps this means that there has to be a choice (ie a love that is simply not given in some circumstances) for freely-given love to ever occur. In which case, this does not disturb God's "happiness" on the whole.

I can see a number of flaws and circulatory elements in all the above counter-arguments actually - presumably why you called it a "puzzle", Calvin :wink:

?

As for the society - I would like to join it, so add me to the list. And another thing; for the symbol of the society, I would suggest a simple candle. It has religious connotations for all the major religions of the world;Buddhism (enlightenment of the Buddha), Hinduism (lamp for diwali), and Judaism/Islam/Christianity's scriptures repeatedly refer to the concept of "light" (Jesus light of the world, etc etc)

Reply 37

Calvin

Good points... I was saying puzzle because I thought I could see a couple of fallacies in there. Confusing beneficial with desirable for instance. However, I think it does reduce to something roughly resembling a valid argument. Something like:

1. God is perfect.
2. God desires my freely given love. (as per the bible et al)
3. To desire something is to want something you think is good.
4. God is all knowing and so will want things which he knows are good.
C1. So anything god desires will be a good thing.
6. My freely given love is a good thing god doesn't have. (From C1 and 2)
C2. God is less than perfect *Contradiction with 1.*

Therefore God is not perfect or many religions are (to my understanding) mistaken in a fundamental way about the nature of life after death, heaven etc and that essentially God doesn't want or need my love in any way.

And that I'm less sure of the problem. Essentially the point being made is that to desire something is not to have something you think is good. But as God is all knowing that means he doesn't have something which is good and so is imperfect in some way.
I take your point about circularity being a perfection of a shape, but might argue that God is an intelligent being with no material form and so is only logically able to possess perfections of intelligent beings. And thus his perfection is limited by logic, but as far as I can see he can still have other perfections like omniscience, total satisfaction etc. and he doesn't seem to have the latter... which seems impossible.

Reply 38

Jasundie

Calvin

How do you know God wants your love? Do all religions state that their God demands your love?

Also, is there such thing as "perfectly happy?" If God is perfect, then surely he must be perfectly sad aswell, therefore, God, theoreticcally, could be both.

May I also join the society?

Reply 39

Calvin

I did restate the argument to avoid perfectly happy. But I agree with you on that point.

How do I know God wants my love? Because I'm told it is good to love God. Most gods make it a requirement or a mark of morality that I love them, Bur the same could also work for 'God wants me not to be an adulterer' 'I am an adulterer', For example. Or murder, or whatever. Any kind of religous requirement. The vast majority of religions make requirements on my behaviour or beliefs as stated by their God. The fact that there are these requirements made by religions in the name of their God plus the fact that I don't meet them is sufficient for the argument.
Even if that isn't really what God wants, just what the religion wants, its enough to show a fundamental flaw if those religions make those requirements in the name of their gods.