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Cambridge English Students and Applicants

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Reply 40

Neutral_Tones

Thanks for the info epitome and Lidka! :smile:

Yeah I was aware of the difference, but pretty ignorant about anything more than that! :redface:

Thankfully though in my interview I didn't mention the language aspect (having no clue) and only talked about the literature. Just to confuse myself more: apparently you can borrow papers from the ASNaC tripos - which ones would they be/ is that the Old English paper? I've checked the course content, but it doesn't seem to be very specific. Thanks! :smile:

Reply 41

Neutral_Tones

mavoury - love the poems by the way! *Gives smiley face sticker* :smile:

Reply 42

Lidka

Neutral_Tones

Thanks for the info epitome and Lidka! :smile:

Yeah I was aware of the difference, but pretty ignorant about anything more than that! :redface:

According to my handbook (this is still for Paper 7, the language option, btw), you can also pick Insular Latin language and literature, Old Norse language and literature, and Medieval Welsh language and literature. :s-smilie:

Reply 43

epitome

Hmm, borrowing papers seems to be becoming something of a point of conflict within the Faculty.

The Old English paper (under the umberella of 'Paper 7', in which all languages, except English Language [Paper 8] are contained) is not a borrowed paper; rather, it is a paper written by the English Faculty for English students. Though we cover much the same material as the ASNaC Anglo-Saxonists, our paper is more literary and less linguistic (though there's certainly an unavoidable element of the latter, much to my distress!). This is the same, I believe, for all languages in Part I: they are specifically English papers, rather than borrowed from other Triposes.

It tends to be in Part II (3rd yr) that papers are more freely borrowed. Though quite how much freedom is arguable and contentious. Theoretically, however, it's possible to do Old Norse and Renaissance Latin (is that the same as Insular Latin, Lidia?) -- I know people doing these options at the moment. There used to be quite a long list of papers we could borrow, including from the History, MML (about which you could ask Da Bachtopus, who borrowed a French paper at Part II and is now studying in France), Linguistics and ASNaC Triposes, but I don't know to what extent these are now available. The difficulty with borrowing seems to be because the disciplines require different skills, and the Faculties have to feel sure that the person borrowing the paper will not drag either facultys' marks down. Think of that what you will.

There is one other option to replace Paper 7 language: Paper 10. This covers the gap between 1066-1300, that Tripos doesn't otherwise do. This is quite a funky paper, and you have to do two of three languages/literatures within it -- Medieval English, Medieval Latin, and Medieval French. This is quite a funky paper, and I would have taken it had I known of its existence. (It's only subjectively funky, though -- no better or worse than any other paper, technically!).

Reply 44

Lidka

epitome

It tends to be in Part II (3rd yr) that papers are more freely borrowed. Though quite how much freedom is aruable and contentious. Theoretically, however, it's possible to do Old Norse and Renaissance Latin (is that the same as Insular Latin, Lidia?) -- I know people doing these options at the moment. There used to be quite a long list of papers we could borrow, including from the History, MML (about which you could ask Da Bachtopus, who borrowed a French paper at Part II and is now studying in France), Linguistics and ASNaC Triposes, but I don't know to what extent these are now available. The difficulty with borrowing seems to be because the disciplines require different skills, and the Faculties have to feel sure that the person borrowing the paper will not drag either faculty's marks down. Think of that what you will.

There is one other option to replace Paper 7 language: Paper 10. This covers the gap between 1066-1300, that Tripos doesn't otherwise do. This is quite a funky paper, and you have to do two of three languages/literatures within it -- Medieval English, Medieval Latin, and Medieval French. This is quite a funky paper, and I would have taken it had I known of its existence. (It's only subjectively funky, though -- no better or worse than any other paper, technically!).

Nonono, Insular Latin is quite different to Renaissance Latin! The Insular stuff is basically the Latin written by monks in the British Isles (hence "insular") in the dark ages (I think. Don't quote me on that last part). Renaissance Latin quite different, and as far as I'm aware, much closer to the classical style.

And yeah, I'd forgotten about Paper 10, I'd assumed it was part of Paper 7 (oops!). Two of my classmates are doing it and really enjoying it. For the first term, at least, you read the texts in translation before choosing between the French/Latin/English.

Having said all this, though, Greek beats them all. :wink:

Reply 45

epitome

Thanks, Lidia -- knew you'd know the difference! :smile:

Greek does not "beat them all", you little freak. :p:

Reply 46

epitome

P.S. Is anyone else getting really quite twitchy about the fact that so many people seem to have forgotten how to use the subjunctive? Because it's distressing me (admittedly probably disproportionately).

And also that HORRIBLE advert that keeps coming up saying "Worried your [sic.] getting in too much debt?. *cries*

Reply 47

Lidka

epitome

Thanks, Lidia -- knew you'd know the difference! :smile:

Greek does not "beat them all", you little freak. :p:

It SO does. :biggrin:

The subjunctive is dead. It lives on only in various English faculties around the UK. :frown:

And that advert is ridiculous. :hmpf:

Reply 48

epitome

No, it doesn't.

The subjunctive is only dead because people are idiots. *adamant* "was" simply doesn't make sense when it should be "were". It is annoying.

"If I was you I'd start using the subjunctive". :p:

Reply 49

Lidka

Does. (I'm not backing down on this one! And I don't care if I sound like a three-year-old. :biggrin:

)

Well, it's not wholly stupid to assume 'was' instead of 'were'. No one says 'I were (sad/happy/whatever)' in normal speech. It's logical, if you didn't know the subjunctive existed (which most people don't), to assume the indicative instead. Though I should hastily point out that I don't believe that makes it right.

Reply 50

epitome

It does not. (Nor am I; and nor do I!)

Lidia, if you ever, ever try to justify such a gross grammatical abomination again I will start creating cruel and unusual punishments. And no, that is not meant to sound like Fun. I don't care what reason there might be behind the virtually dead subjunctive -- I just want people to acknowledge it! *stomps* Dammit.

Reply 51

epitome

P.S. Please feel to butt in, anyone else, about anything! Lidia & I are just passing the time. :wink:

Reply 52

Lidka

Yes, surely there must be more English offer holders out there? Where are you all?

I'mn not justifying the loss of the subjunctive. I'm merely pointing out why it's disappeared. And I can see a job for you after graduation already... manning the Save the Subjunctive campaign. :biggrin:

P.S. Does.

Reply 53

mavoury

RIght, obviously you two have spent much too long alone on these forums. Time for an offer holder to intervene and steer the posts somewhere sane....Epitome: One of my friends is writing her Advanced english extended essay on infinity in Borges actually (we read his Labyrinths last year)...I am writing mine on the fairy-tales of Hans Christian Andersen and the brothers Grimm, and their importance in global society today (eg. why are they so pouplar all over the world...) etc. In case anyone wanted to know. Which I'm sure they did... NOT. In fact I'm not entirely sure where the essay is going so feel free to make suggestions!

Yay I now have a gold star from Epitome, and a smiley face sticker from Neutral_Tones! I feel so LOVED!

Reply 54

Lidka

mavoury

Wellll, it's only because neither of us really want to do our real work. (Though I have just bought a lovely book about Milton. With PICTURES! :biggrin:

)

Those sound like two very interesting essays. If only A-levels had an equivalent...

Reply 55

epitome

Okay, let's turn this into more than a pantomime: Why does Greek "beat them all"?

The subjunctive, and correct language use generally, is disappearing/has disappeared, I'm convinced, because English syllabubs started being more about "expressing, dearie" than "Get it right, Deirdre". I'm all for people expressing themselves, but it would be good if they could do it with some degree of accuracy. I'm not necessarily advocating pedantry, but just as women had to burn bras and throw themselves in front of horses (not necessarily in that order), it seems that one has to go to some extremes before one can relax into some degree of moderate acceptability.
And yes, I have just compared the sufferagette movement and 1960s feminism to grammatical pedantry. What of it?

And I will pre-empt your asking what "accuracy" means by saying simply that a good starting point would be some regular adherence to syntactically, semantically and sensically (yes, "sensically"!) coherent guidelines.

Humph.

:biggrin:

And if Save the Subjunctive can go on in the classroom (oh BOY, it can!) then yes. :p:

Reply 56

epitome

mavoury

Ha! How very dare you! :p:

Ooh, the Borges essay sounds like lots and lots of fun. Have you read his story about the infinite library? I am guessing she's probably using it (if not, er, suggest she does!). But you should read it too (is indeed you haven't already). Or just read it in the University Library here...several million books feels pretty infinite! :biggrin:

I would be interested to know in what way you talk about the fairytales' "importance". Or do you mean relevance? Or both?

Reply 57

Lidka

epitome

But I like pantomimes. :frown:

Hm, why does Greek beat them all? I suppose I like it because it's fiendishly hard - there's something really cool about finally getting a tricky piece of grammar right. I like because it's very precise as a language - Latin was always difficult for me because it would take a lot of circling and some imagination to get to the literal meaning of a phrase. Greek has more specific vocab, instead of the Latin one-word-with-eleven-meanings, and enormously helpful definite articles. As a spoken language it has a lovely sound and rhythmn to it. And as literature, there is SO much of it, and it's not dry or tedious to learn because it's (watch out, here comes a cliché!) timeless. Now when I read texts that reference the classics, I know what they're on about, and when they quote Homer or Aristotle or whatever, I can read it, even if I don't fully understand the sense. I've always resented that having no classical education makes reading older literature more difficult, because up until 50 years ago it was assumed you did - now I feel like I can finally meet the texts I read on even ground.

Aaaaaaaaand back to the topic: yes, English syllabubs (hee!) are ****. Bring grammar lessons back, I say. And outlaw text speak. :mad:

Reply 58

mavoury

Yeh I've read the infinite library story: "The Library of Babylon" isn't it? It hurt my head :P No, I quite liked Borges he makes you think. A bit like another Spanish writer Julio Cortazar. Now that is an author. His novel Hopscotch blew my mind. I suggest you all read it.
I think I'm probably talking more about the fairy tales' relevance to society: ie. why do we read them, what makes these fantastical tales so popular? is there a message to be found that is still valid today? etc. Please criticise or suggest!

Reply 59

epitome

mavoury

Close! It's The Library of Babel...he also wrote The Lottery in Babylon, though, so easy to confuse! (And no, I'm not a walking encyclopaedia -- I looked in the contents page of the book). :p:

Hopscotch is not famous enough, IMO. That is, it should be more in the mainstream.

Re: fairytales. Popular to whom? The reason I ask is because it would be an interesting (though 6th-form unachievable) anthropological/cultural study. Take the idea of the damsel in distress (of some kind: Red Riding Hood is saved by the woodcutter; Rapunzel is trapped; Cinderella is oppressed, and all that jazz), and the daring Prince. And normally (though not always) a wicked character: witch, evil step-parent, etc. How much of our 'enjoyment' (arguable!) of the stories is formed by cultural normas. Actually, how much of the norm is formed by the stories? And to what extent, and how quickly, do the norms established by the stories become solidified? And then what about Shrek, which turns it on its head (*to an extent*)? And why can't it be turned on its head more? Have you read Jenny Diski's The Vanishing Princess? She does some funky things with them Please take no notice of all this, I'm thinking aloud.

As for the "message" and its validity: Has it ever been valid? :wink: