[solihp]

It's either a myth or a reality, but I'm not sure which, and I'm keen to see what everyone thinks. The cause of the suspicion is obvious: 'new order'. The name Joy Division perhaps less so, but apparently it was the name given to sex slaves in Nazi concentration camps.

[halátnost]

I don't think it's "either a myth or a reality", I think it's probably a mixture of the two, an exaggerated truth (although I think you'd find it very hard to define a pop band seriously as fascists). Most likely they were young and a bit naive and just jumped upon influences and imagery that appeared powerful, different and cool and a bit dark to them without ever really considering the connotations or repercussions of choosing a name like Joy Division, and later, New Order. I know Peter Hook later defended the choosing of the name New Order, denying they had read Mein Kampf or even knew of the associations.

However, I think during Joy Division's press at the time, there were quite a few reports of possible fascistic tendencies, so they certainly weren't unawares of the speculation. Ian Curtis had apparently read the book The House of Dolls by Karol Cetinsky and lifted the name Joy Division from there.

If they were, perhaps misguidedly, influenced by Nazi culture and aesthetics, they certainly weren't the only ones. Bryan Ferry was recently in trouble for praising Leni Riefenstahl's films, and certainly young, wannabe dissident lads have a tendency to view Nazi ideology and aesthetics 'ironically' as cool and a bit different. But I reckon it's something that people grow out of. You can perhaps see why an indie band would be attracted to certain aspects of the Nazi propadanda campaigns, ie. strong signs and imagery, contrasting colours, mass rallies etc. It's a good way to be noticed, but I think even if you could prove that Curtis tucked himself in bed at night with a cup of cocoa and a copy of Mein Kampf, it would still be a bit of a stretch to define them as fascists. Given that fascism is a political ideology and thus, strictly speaking, one would have to be a practioner of that political ideology to be a fascist, and not just someone who occasionally swooned over swastikas or Albert Speer blueprints and had general sympathies.

Also, fascism as an ideological stance often involves the hatred and ostricisation of those who represent change and difference, and I don't think Joy Division or New Order's music reflects this, far from it in fact.

Interesting debate though. And I agree that it wasn't exactly circumspect or well considered to be aligning oneself with Nazi aesthetics and ideology, but no, I don't think Joy Division or New Order were fascists. But I won't hold it against them - they made some damn good music.

[Profesh]

Not in any sense that matters.

[MC REN]

No they weren't, they were just interested in world war 2 and nazis - as are a lot of people - and probably liked to provoke people.

If you listen to their lyrics or interviews I think it is clear that they weren't fascists, in the nazi sense anyway.

Also, reading Mein Kampf doesn't make you a nazi...

[Sandhu]

(Original post by halátnost)
I don't think it's "either a myth or a reality", I think it's probably a mixture of the two, an exaggerated truth (although I think you'd find it very hard to define a pop band seriously as fascists). Most likely they were young and a bit naive and just jumped upon influences and imagery that appeared powerful, different and cool and a bit dark to them without ever really considering the connotations or repercussions of choosing a name like Joy Division, and later, New Order. I know Peter Hook later defended the choosing of the name New Order, denying they had read Mein Kampf or even knew of the associations.......

Good post.

[geetar]

No.

[L i b]

The real question is, what about Bowie?

[Sundous]

No, I think this is probably one of the reasons why they chose such a name though: just to spark controversy;be ambiguous;show their interest in WO II etc.

[Invocation]

Ha, no. The remaining NO members are involved in the socialist/anti-war movement in Manchester atm.

[naivesincerity]

(Original post by L i b)
The real question is, what about Bowie?

I said something to that effect and got slagged for it on youtube, because 'his wife is black' apparently.

[AT82]

I've met all the people involved in those bands inc the late Rob Gretton, Tony Wilson etc. The only person of importance I have not met is Bernard Sumner.

I am pretty sure they are not facists and have been involved in some anti racist compaigns in Manchester. They did at the time however love nothing more than winding the media up. Others joined in too if you look at some of the factory names they all have Natzi connections

Warsaw
Joy Division
New Order
Durriti Column
A Certain Ratio - not sure about this

Lately other bands have copied the idea, and the bands which have all quote Joy Division as an influence.

Franz Ferdinand, Kaiser Cheifs (to an extent), Bloc Party etc.

[naivesincerity]

(Original post by AT82)
I've met all the people involved in those bands inc the late Rob Gretton, Tony Wilson etc. The only person of importance I have not met is Bernard Sumner.

Impressive. How did you meet them?

[AT82]

(Original post by naivesincerity)
Impressive. How did you meet them?

I live in Manchester Tony Wilson was at the most the charity gigs so saw him a lot had a very brief conversation with him. Spent a lot of time 'annoying' hooky when he was DJ'ing in a club with Clint Boon. He pinched my nose and called me a nosy bastard.

I had a long conversation with Stephen Morris at the Rob Gretton memorial do at the Ritz, talked about their music and his wonderful drumming skills.

I knew Rob Gretton because he lived round the corner from me and his son was in my sisters class at school, a mate of a mate is in a band with his son.

[naivesincerity]

(Original post by AT82)
I live in Manchester Tony Wilson was at the most the charity gigs so saw him a lot had a very brief conversation with him. Spent a lot of time 'annoying' hooky when he was DJ'ing in a club with Clint Boon. He pinched my nose and called me a nosy bastard.

I had a long conversation with Stephen Morris at the Rob Gretton memorial do at the Ritz, talked about their music and his wonderful drumming skills.

I knew Rob Gretton because he lived round the corner from me and his son was in my sisters class at school, a mate of a mate is in a band with his son.

Cool.

[Overground]

(Original post by L i b)
The real question is, what about Bowie?

and Brian Ferry lol http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6561177.stm

[Fen]

(Original post by halátnost)
(although I think you'd find it very hard to define a pop band seriously as fascists)..

Joy Division, pop? No way.

They aren't fascists. Joy Division was a group of Jewish women that were sex slaves in the concentration camps.
But they just liked the name.

[naivesincerity]

(Original post by Overground)
and Brian Ferry lol http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6561177.stm

What a bunch of ******s.
He praised their iconography, not their ideology, as was obvious. Why should he have to bend over backwards to justify himself?

[Thud]

(Original post by AT82)
Others joined in too if you look at some of the factory names they all have Natzi connections

Warsaw
Joy Division
New Order
Durriti Column
A Certain Ratio - not sure about this

How the hell does Warsaw have nazi connotations?


As for Joy Division OP, no, that's stupid. Probably just some smelly hippy on crack came out with the idea because their music didn't fit with his groove.

[AT82]

The Nazi's wanted to invade Poland, Warsaw being its capital.

[Acquiesce04]

"Also, fascism as an ideological stance often involves the hatred and ostricisation of those who represent change and difference....."

Joy Division (with the help of wizard-like Martin Hannet) createda new form of music. So No they were not fascists, they probably were just interested in it or thought it would get peoples attention to the band.

Then again Ian Curtis was a mental b,astard.