When is the best time to take vitamin tablets?

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Jason Sparks

I'm assuming you have scientific proof that supports your argument that they do 'no good'?

I've been taken a combination of vitamins and found that my skin looks much healthier and clear: how do you explain that?

You know, it's really weird. I bought a magic stone off a gypsy a few weeks back which he promised would prevent any wild tigers or sharks from attacking me while I held it. And you know what? I haven't been attacked by tigers or sharks since! It actually worked! And to make things even better, I haven't been attacked by any bears, either, so I must've gotten a bargain!

Reply 21

Jason Sparks

FyreFight

You do realize it's widely accepted that vitamin E is exceptionally good for the skin, which is why most cosmetics contain some extract of vitamin E. I hardly think there's a spurrious correlation (the sort of which you crudely assert) between my recent appraisal of my skin and my recent use of regular vitamin E.

Really, if you've nothing to do except condescend my (and, consequentially, those other's) experience of vitamin supplements - which, FYI is not conducive of an informative discussion - I suggest you bugger off.

Reply 22

FyreFight

Jason Sparks

I never commented on vitamin E's properties, and I never condescended your experiences. I pointed out the flaw in your "I did x and y happened, therefore x MUST cause y" argument.

Edit: And Jesus Christ man, change your profile picture. Not being able to take you seriously "is not conducive of an informative discussion"!

Reply 23

Jason Sparks

FyreFight

1. I didn't necessarily imply causation - although I suspect it is the case.

2. What's wrong with my picture??

Reply 24

*Messalina*

I've been told that you should take them after your main meal, because they need fats in order to be absorbed properly. Or something like that. But then again, I'm by no means an expert! :redface:

Reply 25

miki_da_magpie

Sorry, I agree with Jason, if you're not here to add to an informative discussion then please **** the hell off. Drug and Vitamin metabolism are different! FFS vitamins have a lot to do with drug metabolism, they are involved in eachothers process, that doesnt mean that drug metabolism = vitamin metabolism. Vitamins are often a key component used in the metabolism of drugs.

acroatic_panda

"Drugs are molecules, vitamins are molecules, your body can't tell the difference. Indeed vitamins can be dangerous: vitamin A overdose is fatal."

- Sorry acrobatic panda, do you have a degree in science? obviously not. Drugs are not simple molecules (not all) and even if they were both molecules (funnily enough vitamins are actually compounds... but ill not bore you with the real science behind it), heres something interesting: Hydrogen is an element, and so is carbon :redface:

THEY MUST BE THE SAME!
Here's another one: Apparently an overdose in most things can be fatal? I dont know how reliable this source is, but im pretty sure that an overdose on heroine, speed, aspirin, plutonium, CO, etc, etc, can be lethal, no? Are you trying to tell me that people shouldnt take vitamins because they could overdose? Oh dear, do you know how much you have to take to overdose? In a typical tablet you could find between 800 - 1500 units of vitamin A. You need 1million units to reach acute toxicity in one go, and between 15,000 - 25,000 units A DAY FOR MONTHS to prove slightly toxic in infants. Good luck taking that many pills!

Please, if you're going to blast one of the facts, have something to back it up with: this is aimed at profesh, renal, and yap. Drug metabolism and vitamin metabolism are involved not the same.

Reply 26

miki_da_magpie

FyreFight

Edit: And Jesus Christ man, change your profile picture. Not being able to take you seriously "is not conducive of an informative discussion"!

The OP asked you a question of an entirely different matter, are you distracted that easily by his profile picture (for which to see, you would have to click on it and be taken to another page)? Heres something for you to do. Involve yourself in the actual discussion, dotn be bothered about his profile picture that would be "confuctive of an informative discussion". :wink:

Reply 27

FyreFight

miki_da_magpie

Hmm? I answered the OP's question in the post you quoted, but you've edited my answer out.

I'm glad he's changed it since though. At least he's wearing underwear in this one.

Reply 28

Acrobatic_Panda

miki_da_magpie

- Sorry acrobatic panda, do you have a degree in science? obviously not.
Quite right, I have two, and one of those is a PhD....

Drugs are not simple molecules (not all) and even if they were both molecules (funnily enough vitamins are actually compounds... but ill not bore you with the real science behind it), heres something interesting: Hydrogen is an element, and so is carbon :redface:

THEY MUST BE THE SAME!

I think you missed my point so I'll be clearer. Yes vitamins are different to drugs in the same way that one vitamin is different to another vitamin and one drug is different to another. The point I was trying to make, although perhaps not clearly enough, is that the distinction between what is a 'drug' and what is a 'vitamin' is a human distinction ultimately they're both substances to the body. The body doesn't know what humans decide to call vitamins and what they decide to call drugs, it's a compound (if you prefer this term :rolleyes:

) and will be metabolised accordingly. If you would care to explain the general difference in metabolism between drugs and vitamins, and how the body distinguishes the two please go ahead. The body can respond to different chemicals differently, but saying that it treats all vitamins in one way and all drugs in another needs some further explanation.

Reply 29

YAP

miki_da_magpie

Drug and Vitamin metabolism are different!

Oh, so cytochrome P450 enzymes aren't responsible for metabolising both codeine and vitamin D then?

Reply 30

bright star

a significantly smaller amount of vitamin A is required to do damage to your eyesight but that isn't the point. basically most people who take vitamin tablets overdose on them and get 2,3,4 times their GDA of various vitamins. many supplements contain 100% of your GDA, considering that you also eat, it's obviously not all necessary.

you should focus on trying to eat a balanced diet rather than taking vitamins. if you really must take them, eat them after a meal, more than anything else, taking them on an empty stomach will make you naseous. but also, you do need some fat to absorb them. if your tablet contains iron, take it with orange juice.

unless you have severe problems you can get all the vitamins you need to be healthy and to have healthy nails, hair, skin whatever from a healthy balanced diet. so take them all you like but don't shout when people say you're better off without them.

Reply 31

Jason Sparks

Acrobatic_Panda

Quite right, I have two, and one of those is a PhD....

A placebo effect is surely - and i argue - just as good as any other effect. Clearly is someone is dying (seriously ill) then a placebo effect is rather less appropriate.

However with skin concerns, I think a placebo effect can sometimes be vital. Most of the things in this world are placebo (in that, we assume and therefore our mindset is changed accordingly).

I mean, let's be honest, the £200 price tag on Creme de le mer and other expensive similar products is all about placebo: reassuringly expensive as one advert calls it.

Reply 32

YAP

Jason Sparks

A placebo effect is surely - and i argue - just as good as any other effect....

However with skin concerns, I think a placebo effect can sometimes be vital. Most of the things in this world are placebo (in that, we assume and therefore our mindset is changed accordingly).

It's an interesting ethical issue, in that if a placebo has an effect, should we really tell the patient that it's just a placebo? At the same time, though, quite often the alternative treatments which are no better than placebo are an expensive con, so there's the other side of the ethical coin that if someone is being ripped of we should probably tell them.

The fact is, for conditions like eczema where often people do suffer despite the efforts of conventional medicine, there is always someone in 'alternative' medicine who is touting a cure. I'm counting vitamin use as described here as alternative medicine - their efficacy in the cases described here is scientifically unproven. All the evidence is anecdotal, bearing witness to two phenomena. First, the placebo effect, as discussed. Second, regression towards the mean, a statistical phenomenon where getting any worse is so improbable that the only way is up. For instance, suppose I felt utterly worn out, to the point where it's unlikely I could feel much worse. So I take some vitamins for a few days and say I feel much better for it. Well, yes, this is what one might expect - it was unlikely I was going to get worse....

Reply 33

miki_da_magpie

Acrobatic_Panda

Quite right, I have two, and one of those is a PhD....

I think you missed my point so I'll be clearer. Yes vitamins are different to drugs in the same way that one vitamin is different to another vitamin and one drug is different to another. The point I was trying to make, although perhaps not clearly enough, is that the distinction between what is a 'drug' and what is a 'vitamin' is a human distinction ultimately they're both substances to the body. The body doesn't know what humans decide to call vitamins and what they decide to call drugs, it's a compound (if you prefer this term :rolleyes:

Appologies about the degree remark then, just the way you worded pretty much everything in that post i tore apart sounded very very floozy (for lack of a better word).
Sure the body doesnt recognise that its a "drug" or a "vitamin", its a compound not made by the body, but they are broken down differently
in relation to what compounds they are. Even vitamins are broken down by different enzymes and in different cells from eachother. Im pretty sure that vitamin D is also USED in drug metabolism by acting on p450, and not actually metabolised by p450, but im not entirely sure on this. I never wrote that it treats all vitamins and drugs the same way, I wrote that it treats vitamins and drugs differently. Comparing vitamin metabolism to drug metabolism, therefore imo, is not helpful.
Also, question here. I've never heard of vitamins actually going through distinct phases such as drugs do? Id probably have to look into that a bit more, but im pretty sure they dont?

With all this talk of overdosing, and possible damage to the body. I was assuming that the OP was actually a smart person and would read what it says on the bottle, and not swallow 50 pills at a time. I stated before that it should be used as a supplement, not as a basis.

Reply 34

miki_da_magpie

YAP

It's an interesting ethical issue, in that if a placebo has an effect, should we really tell the patient that it's just a placebo? At the same time, though, quite often the alternative treatments which are no better than placebo are an expensive con, so there's the other side of the ethical coin that if someone is being ripped of we should probably tell them.

The fact is, for conditions like eczema where often people do suffer despite the efforts of conventional medicine, there is always someone in 'alternative' medicine who is touting a cure. I'm counting vitamin use as described here as alternative medicine - their efficacy in the cases described here is scientifically unproven. All the evidence is anecdotal, bearing witness to two phenomena. First, the placebo effect, as discussed. Second, regression towards the mean, a statistical phenomenon where getting any worse is so improbable that the only way is up. For instance, suppose I felt utterly worn out, to the point where it's unlikely I could feel much worse. So I take some vitamins for a few days and say I feel much better for it. Well, yes, this is what one might expect - it was unlikely I was going to get worse....

Ok now im confused. Earlier you were trying to argue that drug and vitamin metabolism were the same. Now, however you are arguing that they are different. You're saying that vitamins should be used as alternative medicine right.

I'll try to explain. With this placebo effect of a pill right? Let's say its aspirin. You have a killer headache, it cant get worse, you take a pill... does it get better? In my opinion this is unlikely if the pill is a placebo, it is very likely if its aspirin or paracetamol or anything along those lines.
But ur saying that if your skin looks bad and you take a vitamin its a placebo effect? I thought vitamins acted like drugs? So why placebo effect in one instance, and an actual effect for the other?

Reply 35

Acrobatic_Panda

miki_da_magpie

I never wrote that it treats all vitamins and drugs the same way, I wrote that it treats vitamins and drugs differently. Comparing vitamin metabolism to drug metabolism, therefore imo, is not helpful.
You said vitamins are metabolised differently to drugs. That implies that drugs are metabolised in one way; and vitamins in another distinct way. Not that everything we ingest is treated differently, otherwise what would be the point in making that distinction? Anyway, we agree on one thing: the difference in metabolism of different substances isn't particularly important to this discussion. My point was that just in the way drugs need to be subject to trials to prove their efficacy so should vitamins.

I'll try to explain. With this placebo effect of a pill right? Let's say its aspirin. You have a killer headache, it cant get worse, you take a pill... does it get better? In my opinion this is unlikely if the pill is a placebo, it is very likely if its aspirin or paracetamol or anything along those lines.

I wouldn't say very unlikely actually (the placebo effect is very powerful) but the point is that a group of scientists have conducted an experiment to show the efficacy of these drugs with a large number of people. One group of whom will have been given a placebo; the other group the drug. Say 50% of the control group and 80% of the other group report pain relief (assuming reasonable sample size and good experimental methodology) we can reliably conclude that the drug has some benefit above placebo. If the same was done with vitamins then I wouldn't state it was likely that we could be seeing only a placebo effect with them. Note though, that just because anecdotally a few people say it's helped them doesn't mean something is working beyond a placebo: give people sugar pills and a large number of them will report feeling better: be it pain or bad skin....

Reply 36

miki_da_magpie

Acrobatic_Panda

You said vitamins are metabolised differently to drugs. That implies that drugs are metabolised in one way; and vitamins in another distinct way. Not that everything we ingest is treated differently, otherwise what would be the point in making that distinction? Anyway, we agree on one thing: the difference in metabolism of different substances isn't particularly important to this discussion. My point was that just in the way drugs need to be subject to trials to prove their efficacy so should vitamins.

Yes we do agree on that.

Acrobatic_Panda

I would say its unlikely, because this discussion is giving me a headache, and I KNOW that aspirin at this time will work, why? Because ive headaches before and it works. Sure theres loads of scientific proof behind it as well, and atm there is not much scientific proof for anything like vitamins, although read the article i posted in the other thread link, interesting if nothing else right?
So ok, OP comes on here and asks how to take tablets, not whether they work, but how he should take them. Even if he did ask if they worked, how many people would you need on here to say that it has helped them and that its not just a placebo effect? Unfortunately we dont have the resources or time or effort for something like that, so im going to assume that if the OP has noticed his skin gets better from taking the vitamins (of which there is quite a lot of information backing just that) then im going to believe him, and not immediately run to the conclusion that its a placebo effect. It wasnt even in the OPs orginal question???

Reply 37

YAP

miki_da_magpie

Ok now im confused. Earlier you were trying to argue that drug and vitamin metabolism were the same.

They are the same in as far as that both drugs and vitamins are metabolised by the body. Yes, vitamins can themselves play a role in metabolism, but can - like drugs - be metabolised themselves.

You're saying that vitamins should be used as alternative medicine right.

Alternative medicine is merely anything which is scientifically unproven; anything which is scientifically proven is referred to as medicine. Vitamin use is only of scientifically proven benefit in restricted circumstances (such as those listed earlier by Renal). Hence, the majority of the time, vitamins are serving as an alternative medicine, i.e. no proven health benefits. It's an entirely unregulated market - they're classed as dietary supplements, so there's no need to prove efficacy.

I understand the placebo effect; but I think you are misguided if you think it is unlikely that placebos can ever get rid of headaches. Homeopathy, for instance, is by all accounts a very profitable way of selling water; and yet people swear by homeopathic cures for headaches.

If you doubt that placebos can help headaches, then consider the following example of another brain condition. Parkinson's Disease is caused by a loss of dopaminergic neurons in the brain (those projecting from the substantia nigra to the striatum). In a controlled study, it was shown that giving a placebo treatment to people with the disease caused an increase in activity on these dopaminergic pathways, even though there was nothing in the placebo that could possibly cause that. So a placebo here caused a specific, measurable response - and if it can do it for something as significant as Parkinson's Disease, then why not a headache?

But ur saying that if your skin looks bad and you take a vitamin its a placebo effect?

The scientific evidence suggests this, yes. A simple, plausible, explanation for how they can exert a placebo effect is as follows: stress tends to cause bad skin, and bad skin can cause some people stress; someone who is stressed about their skin takes something they think will help, and they calm down a bit as they now have a sense of hope; calming down reduces stress; and hence, their skin condition improves.

I thought vitamins acted like drugs?

Vitamins act like drugs in the sense that they can both be metabolised.

So why placebo effect in one instance, and an actual effect for the other?

Because drugs and vitamins are different, and their effects on the body are different. However, they do have some similarities - much like apples and oranges are different, but they're both fruit. This seems to have all spun off from your coment about vitamins not being metabolised, which is wrong - different vitamins can be, and are, metabolised in different ways, much like different drugs are metabolised in different ways.

Anyhow, this whole drug vs vitamin metabolism thing is somewhat of an unnecessary distraction, and has nothing to do with whether it's a placebo effect or not.

Reply 38

Jillie Boe

Wow!

There's some smart people on this board.

Reply 39

YAP

miki_da_magpie

How many people would you need on here to say that it has helped them and that its not just a placebo effect?

Unfortunately we dont have the resources or time or effort for something like that, so im going to assume that if the OP has noticed his skin gets better from taking the vitamins (of which there is quite a lot of information backing just that) then im going to believe him, and not immediately run to the conclusion that its a placebo effect.

I'm going to not believe him. Do you understand anything about scientific method and experimental design, or do you believe anything that anyone tells you even without a well-designed control study to prove efficacy with statistical significance?