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Chances of getting an interview

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However, Oxbridge is actually less competitive for law than other unis like Bristol, UCL etc. At Oxbridge, there might be 5 or 6 people competing for a law place at a college, whereas somewhere like UCL there could be up to 15 or even 20. This principle applies to most, if not all, the subjects offered by Oxbridge, perhaps because the process is self-selecting and requires more courage in view of the interview

As for AS levels, when I did A levels in English, Class Civ and RS last year, the determining factor in whether or not you scored an A was decidedly not your essay writing abilities; it was your ability to jump through hoops and hit ridiculous 'assessment objectives' in your essays. If you did this, you got the marks even if you had written a less than incredible essay. So, I would say the girl should definitely apply to Oxford, as ultimately the final judgement lies with the admissions tutors who will look at her overall situation.

Reply 41

Jessie

Although of course I'm sure this girl is bright, personable and interviews well - it would be strange for her to have been chosen as Head Girl without these characteristics, these are the qualities that admissions tutors look for after they've seen academic potential.

Her GCSE grades (have they been mentioned?) will need to have been extremely good (all A*s and As) for such a competitive subject. If she doesn't declare her AS grades - this shouldnt be detrimental if not the reverse. I didnt declare them and I got an offer for PPE. If she does declare them and they pick up on it, then she may have some explaining to do (if she gets that far). Lack of work/effort will not wash with these tutors.

Her LNAT will need to be exceptional as well. Her AS levels are not exactly Oxbridge Law traditional subjects are they? The only 1 that is really traditional is Eng Lit.

She is applying to one of the most competitive universities in the U.K for one of the most competitive subjects. And she does not have the best starting point. I would advise her to apply post-Alevel when she hopefully has her AAA and is in a stronger position academically.

And also, does she really want to go to Oxford or is it something that she feels she ought to do to please family, teachers etc? She did not exactly choose her subjects with Oxford Law in mind - indicating she didnt really consider it an option - and most applicants (without wishing to stereotype) will have AAAA/AAAB at AS all in traditional law-related subjects (Eng Lit/ History/ a language and maybe a science for breadth etc.)

But, I do wish her the best of luck. Oxford's a lovely city and an excellent uni.

Reply 42

musicbloke

Jessie

Her GCSE grades (have they been mentioned?) will need to have been extremely good (all A*s and As)

This is rubbish.

MB

Reply 43

NDGAARONDI

musicboy

This is rubbish.

It is.

GCSEs will be considered less than the LNAT, interview and GCE 'A' level choices and grades. Plus if GCSEs took such a great weighting, those who excel at an FE college who got poor GCSE results from a underperfoming school and/or late developers would be refused entrance to Oxbridge. Quite a few people with excellent GCSE results are admitted but that doesn't mean to say that had they not have had such great GCSE results, would mean in a rejection to studying there.

Reply 44

Jessie

They are weighted less than those that you mentioned. BUT...If she had AAAB/AAAA at AS and a very good LNAT (which would be more relevant) then the GCSEs would be quite unimportant.

But as she has lower AS grades than most AS applicants (i'm guessing here), a string of As and A*s will work in her favour because they show she can apply herself to a breadth of subjects, and will also consolidate the idea that poorer AS results than expected were down to lack of application, as suggested.

Perhaps all As and A*s is an exaggeration, but the implication is that they need to be in that region of things. Poorer GCSEs do not mean a rejection but poorer GCSEs followed by AABC at AS do not look as good to Oxford admissions tutors who are interested in how you have progressed through your education.

Reply 45

mobb_theprequel

Jessie

I'd go along with most of the above, but would also add to this the fact that interviews only change the fate of less than a third of applicants. Therefore it is fair to assume that the Oxford admissions tutors have a good idea of the candidates they are looking to enlist - prior to interview.

I know I'm stating the obvious, but I think some people seem to forget that the LNAT is, at the moment, an experiment. Speculation may be rife about the LNAT being the centrepiece of law admissions procedures, but nobody knows whether this is the case - and more importantly - the comparitive weighting which will be placed on the exam is unknown.

As somebody has already mentioned on this thread - it's all very well to envision a dazzling LNAT performance, but I'm sure it will be much harder to achieve in practice. GCSEs do matter.

Reply 46

NDGAARONDI

mobb_theprequel

I'd go along with most of the above, but would also add to this the fact that interviews only change the fate of less than a third of applicants.

How did you know this figure?

mobb_theprequel

Speculation may be rife about the LNAT being the centrepiece of law admissions procedures, but nobody knows whether this is the case - and more importantly - the comparitive weighting which will be placed on the exam is unknown.

Any suggestive ideas of any universities you know?

mobb_theprequel

GCSEs do matter.

They are mickey mouse.

Reply 47

tomcoolinguk

mobb_theprequel

I know I'm stating the obvious, but I think some people seem to forget that the LNAT is, at the moment, an experiment. Speculation may be rife about the LNAT being the centrepiece of law admissions procedures, but nobody knows whether this is the case - and more importantly - the comparitive weighting which will be placed on the exam is unknown.

Regarding LNAT weighting- I can reveal how Bristol plan on weighting the LNAT!

GCSEs= /100: Take your 8 best subjects. Each * is worth 4, A= 3, B=2 and C=1.
A Level predictions= /300: Your best three predictions, 20 pts per grade: AAA= 300. Split predictions are given split allocation A/B= 90.
Individualised Factors (average A Level performance of your school [the lowest av. points score /30 in the past 3 years], personal statement, reference, other examination results, positions of responsibility, contribution to activities indicating likely contribution candidate will make to university life)= 40.
LNAT Test: 40.

So there you have it (most applicants, excluding those with exceptional circumstances which HAVE to prevent them from getting an AAB prediction) will be scored out of 480. Obviously, the vast majority of applicants will pass the GCSE and A Level hurdles, but it is clear that a bad LNAT does not effectively end someone's application. Bristol intend to eventually weight the LNAT equal to GCSEs. I.e. as an A Level.

Oxford probably haven't confirmed how they are going to use the LNAT because, although they have a good idea, they don't know how the results are going to settle out. They also need to assess whether the essays should be marked (which IMO is essential) before deciding who to interview.

Law admissions cannot be considered equal to Medicine because the cohort of applicants come from far more diverse A Level backgrounds, and the law faculty recognises- not wanting to ignite controversy on an entirely different debate-that certain A Levels are far more challenging than others. The law tutors have always made assessments regarding this, as a broad academic base is generally viewed as the best preparation for law.

Furthermore, I would just (to all the people applying to Oxford- not me!) like to add that one point often neglected about medicine is that the assessors chose an extra 50 people to invite to interview whom they would, on paper, have considered Oxford standard. The admissions tutor at Hertford let slip that of this 50 the vast majority were state educated, with an * % of 60+ and an indication that they did have the necessary grades and experience. What I want you to take from this is that the University as a whole will not let straight A/A* students be culled.

Regarding the LNAT itself (this post having gone completely off the point and now simply revolving around my desire to exorcise some of my demons) I think that the score range will be incredibly large. At an OAS Summer School I completed the LNAT and the range there was 8-19. This was substantially different from the post range here at UKL, and TMK at least 40/50 people on that summer school are applying to Oxbridge. Most people fell in a narrow range of 11-14. This aligns with the BMAT where the average hovers around 48%. However, what needs to be distilled is what is a meritable score.

Oxford, TMK (again based on talks with tutors at Open Days etc) are expecting a score of around 17 to be considered 'meritable'. However, having been given (against all law facuty rules) a copy of last year's exam paper for Law at Oxford, where the multiple choice was /14, I think the LNAT is substantially harder. The passages are themselves longer, and there are more evaluative 'main argument' etc. questions.

Reply 48

amo1

tomcoolinguk

here if you have 8 a*'s at gcse wont you only get 32 points. i have probably missed something really obvious but how do you get up to 100 marks? :confused:

Reply 49

Bumblebee3

ian-in-northamp

I was talking to my daughter over dinner last night (see 'What to Drop' etc. re daughter in question) and she blithely informed me that she was "99.9% certain to get an interview" (She's applying to Wadham to read law, and has A, A, B and C at AS level). If I didn't know her better, I'd have said she was smoking dope. Surely, with AS level results like that, she's got closer to a 99.9% chance of NOT getting an interview? Cheers, Ian.

Actually most applicants are interviewed. The aim of the colleges is to interview all except those who are obviously unsuitable - those with very poor grades or unfavourable references. The grades you mention are good and will stand her in good stead, although she should consider re-taking papers or dropping the 'C' subject. Note Oxbridge have said time and again that they want quality over quantity when it comes to A' levels and are now looking at individual module results.

Having gone through the process myself (NB Cambridge) and worked with admissions tutors during interviews I would say that the main concern should be making sure she has a strong personal statement, excellent references and above all performs well at interview.

Reply 50

tomcoolinguk

amo1

here if you have 8 a*'s at gcse wont you only get 32 points. i have probably missed something really obvious but how do you get up to 100 marks? :confused:

Sorry- 100=32, 31=97 and so on!

Reply 51

Lizard

tomcoolinguk

Personally, I think that in a subject as competitive as Law she should consider Oxford very carefully and possibly not apply, as there are around 15 universities just beneath Oxbridge asking for AAA-ABB. She might not even- with the severe intensity of competition across the board for Law- get places at some of these.

Do you mean she might miss out on her five other UCAS choices and thus regret 'wasting' a choice on Oxford? Surely the cure for that is to choose a couple of 'safeties' -- unis that ask for lower than AAB (but ones she wouldn't mind going to) -- rather than not reaching for Oxford. Why not at least give it a shot? For one thing, they have UCAS 'extra' these days - if you don't get a place at any of your choices, you're allowed to try two more, without waiting for Clearing.

Reply 52

musicbloke

Lizard

The problem is that good courses get filled up quickly. Most of the best unis will be full by the beginning of december. By the time you've been turned down by everyone it is likely to be too late,

MB

Reply 53

ian-in-northamp

Thanks again, team. I never thought, when I started this thread, that it would run as long as it has – or that I’d uncover such a diverse range of opinions. To answer some of the points you:ve made…. I think that, if she’s unsuccessful this time round, she will re-apply in a year’s time? Why is she so set on Oxford? Difficult to say. At a guess, I’d suggest a) that I’ve brought her up to try to take her chances as they present themselves – and if she has the ability to get into Oxford, she should certainly try, b) she knows perfectly well that an Oxbridge degree, while not being of itself a passport to fame, fortune and beautiful men will certainly stand her in very good stead in the future, and c) she was really convinced by the couple of days she spent at Wadham – she loved the college, loved Oxford itself and felt that she’d like to spend three years there. To pick up on Jessie’s point: no, she doesn’t feel she needs to do it because of parental/school pressure – it’s all her own idea! (In fact, if I’d put any pressure on her, it would have been to raed English at York – like her father did…)

Good thoughts re the written work, Mr. Potatohead. And as for the no-win no-fee interview training – I have no problems with the morality of that. It’s how the world works. Lauren: excellent perspective on the Media Studies thing: I hadn’t thought of positioning it as an analytical subject in which deciphering meanings that aren’t always immediately clear is a key skill. And, if it’s on charisma – and, as Tomcoolinguk says, academic potential - she certainly stands a very good chance. There’s also no doubt that she’ll get a glowing reference from the school.

However, Tom’s wake-up call is spot on. I know, from my experience both in hiring people and trying to get hired, that there are so many applicanst for any given job that the first ‘sort’ is fairly coarse, and based on easy-to-identify, objective criteria. For example, many recruitment agencies will give a pile of CVs to an office junior and ask the junior to bin all the ones that don’t specifically mention “x”. I could well understand it if Oxford took a similar approach, weeding out all the non-AAAA applicants.

However, Tom is a little wide of the mark on whether or not her AS scores are meaningful. I’m confident that they weren’t, and that there’s little doubt that she’ll achieve three As. A little more effort and application is what’s required.

Jessie: spot on. I felt that being asked to be Head Girl would be important, which is why we decided to stay in the area to give her the best possible chance of it, rather than moving away – which was a real option a year or so ago. And it’s true, as I noted previously, that going to Oxford is only a relatively recent idea – she would certainly have chosen different A-level subjects had she been thinking about it at the time. Thanks for the good wishes.

Haz: she went ahead (without telling me) and dropped Computing in favour of Art. (So, dropped her C subject in favour of her B subject). What exercises me about this choice is only whether you have to be a ‘natural artist’ to get an A. She isn’t…

I’d love to think I can re-open this topic when I know the outcome of all this – I kinda feel like all of you who have so generously contributed your time, experience and brain power to discussing my daughter’s future might be interested to know how it works out. Can anyone tell me, realistically, when she could expect to know a) if she’s got an interview, and b) if she’s been offered a place? Cheers, Ian.

Reply 54

InterCity125

Ian,
I have to say that being head girl will make little difference. This year was the first time in 7 years that the head boy of my school got in to Oxbridge and that was for a subject with far less competition than law.
Indeed of the 4 going to Oxbridge this year only 2 had any positions in the school, such as prefect etc.

If she was to go for it again, and hopefuly she won't have to, would she think about doing different A-levels, perhaps is more traditional law subjects such as History etc ?

I doubt she'd be rejected on As results alone, but a good LNAT will be needed to overcome any negative feelings they have about those results.

Reply 55

musicbloke

ian-in-northamp

Good thoughts re the written work, Mr. Potatohead. And as for the no-win no-fee interview training – I have no problems with the morality of that. It’s how the world works.

Ian, I thought more of you. That is a seriously lame argument. You shouldn't just accept things because that is how it is. Now, i'm a modernist (and I guess a little old fashioned in that sense). I will happily challenge the status quo for what I believe to be progress and I don't think that buying personal gain helps the system so I will have to say I disagree with you on this one. She should find out about interviews in early November and then interviews are probably at the beginning of December (and she might have to go for up to three or four days).

MB

Reply 56

Jessie

It looks like the LNAT is on the 3rd Nov, so I would imagine she'd know by about the 15th-20th Nov, giving time for marking (as its multiple choice it might be electronically done), results to be sent to universities and then decisions to be made. I can't imagine it would be much later than that, with law interviews in the 2nd week in december roughly.

The rejection/successful place letter usually comes within 2 weeks of interview - Oxford aim to let everyone know if possible by Xmas. I got my letter on the 20/12 if i remember correctly. and then a letter through from my 1st choice college telling me to let them know if no-one offered me a place!

Reply 57

NDGAARONDI

ian-in-northamp

And as for the no-win no-fee interview training – I have no problems with the morality of that.

Where's the meritocracy here? Why should people get in because they can afford to take a course that managed to get them in?

Reply 58

Mib

I'd be very surprised if she got in. Look at it properly - she got poor AS results, she isn't doing proper subjects (or put it this way, she isn't doing subjects Law admissions tutors like, with the exception of English), and she's applying for one of the most competitive courses.

Put bluntly, when Oxford will have plenty of people with AAAAA at AS level in traditional subjects, why the hell should they even consider her? Hence the need to do well at LNAT and interview (if she gets one).

As for her written work, well yes it's true to say that you have to jump through hoops to get the marks, but anyone capable of producing an otherwise brilliant essay will be able to follow simple critera.

Oh, and being head boy / prefect / whatever means sod all.

Someone should throw some cold water over her. Quit dreaming Ian and tell her to work like hell if she wants even a slim chance.