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Barrister - Oxbridge necessary?

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Chocca

What would be interesting is to how many different chambers these 3000 applicants applied to.

As I said, certain people rate themselves a little too highly...it's mostly Oxbridge types that do this.

Most applicants will know what area they want to focus on eg criminal pupillage/common law pupillage/chancery pupillage and so on and so will apply accordingly. The very best candidates - Oxbridge/top uni 1st class degree plus other things will naturally apply to the top Chambers if that's what they want. I'm easily on course for a 1st but no way would I waste a pupillage application by applying to Matrix or Blackstone or Essex Court etc because I just wouldn't even get an interview. I think most people looking for pupillage know their standard/limits, and if they don't then they're fooling nobody but themselves.

Reply 61

Nana_Julia

Simon Myerson QC

The Oxbridge comments and those about 'genuine' barrister wannabes (whatever they might be, and however defined) seem silly. When I see aspirant barristers I tend to take the view that they are to be taken at their word regarding their choice of profession. The proposition that some are not is odd. On what basis is it said, and what criteria are applied? Or is it merely sounding-off?

Agreed. Who is anyone to say that somebody is not a "genuine" barrister wannabe? I can only suppose you are referring to people who want to be barristers for reasons that you don't think are sound...I have different motivations to other people, and I obviously think mine are the right ones, but doesn't everyone? Isn't everybody entitled to his/her own motivations in life? Isn't it arrogant to presume that it is for you to distinguish between a "genuine" wannabe and one who is not so "genuine"?

Reply 62

Wangers

Evil_Genius

I believe you misinterpreted my suggestion as proposing a selection system, while in fact it is an advisory scheme that I had in mind. I believe you'll have to agree that objections based on fairness are diminished in force when the 'rule' in question serves merely to advise rather than to select and is not at all binding. Thus, even while fully accepting your objections based on the skew resulting from a quantification process, I believe it would not be so significant as to seriously undermine the advisory utility of such statistics. After all, there is nowhere to be 'rejected' from based on the difference of a few points--it would simply form a rough guide as to the probable chances of competative success, if the individual does decide to undertake the BVC. .

How can it not undermine the process when its very fundamental principle is irredeamably flawed? You cannot fairly and objectively quantify qualitative aspects of an application - that is in the very nature of the work. How can you quantify how much someone has matured/learned from an experience, or how eloquent they are at rebutting novel arguments (save for the few examples given in limited interviw time?) Thus, you cannot use a flawed method to advise candidates, many of whom will already be insecure, stressed and confused.

I don't know about such methods as used by Matrix and perphaps others, but it strikes me that Matrix will take the cream of the crop anyway and hence you will know if you stand a reasonable chance amongst all the other insanely high flighers. Those who take the BVC are already very very good, and I think they can seek informal advice as to where to apply rather then be boxed in by numerical indicators.

Otherwsie, in my submission, what will inevitably happen (to the detriment of the Bar) is that pupils will always apply below their potential and they won't dare to shine. As has happened with comparable indicators of ability by selection - for example the BMAT for medical admissions being the one I'm familier with - X school/College will gurantee interviews to people who achieve over Y score, but will holisticlly consider all applicants below that score. What has happened is that people are put of by the numerical indicator - when in reality, that gurenteed interview threshold will only be crossed by a select few - with the vast majority of sometimes better candidates getting in from the quartiles below the 'advised' threshold. This will then evolve into a two tierd system - what the Chambers say they want, and conversely what is actually required. All this will do is add a shroud of secrecy and mystique over the whole system, to its collective detriment. You will get people askine inane questions like 'Ooo Essex want 29 (completly arbitary) I got 28, is my whole life now completly in tatters!!!'?

Your system, whilst superficially approachable, would in reality be a dangerous deterrant to those who wish to approach the Bar.

Evil_Genius

As to the quantification issue, it certainly has the benefit of transparency and a similar system is already used by Matrix and Doughty Street for selection. .

See point above, my contention is that you will know, and definitly be actively pushed toward the likes of Matrix/Essex/Blackstone if you are of that ilk - and if you're not, you will end up there through skill and hard work - ie you will be headhunted.

Evil_Genius

With regard to accents, it wasn't its auditory appeal I was worried about per say but the associations elicited by it, namely of being foreign. The Bar does not exactly have a reputation for embracing diversity (although, admittedly, it made strides in including women/ethnic minorities) and what worries me is the potential for (very much illegal) nationality-based discrimination. In a process as highly competitive and unmonitored as pupillage selection, such considerations could eliminate my ability to compete, no matter what grades/legal experience/insane knife-juggling skills I might have.

Interesting point, I have no idea - although Occhams Razor suggests that there may be unconscience prejeudice based on the lower number of ethnic minorities at the very top echelons; although when you compare that to the proportion that apply initially and subsequently progree, I suspect it may be other committments rather then malicious bias.

Reply 63

Simon Myerson QC

I'm going to deal with the 'top' chambers point on the website because it is coming up very regularly.

As to the foreign barrister question, I would have thought that the biggest question was where you wanted to practice. Very few Chambers will take a pupil who is going off to foreign climes within a short time. Otherwise, it should not make any difference. As to whether chambers may prefer a home grown candidate to a foreign one, I suppose the answer is yes, but that is not a legal issue. People have prejudices. If your question is about British citizens of foeign extraction then the answer should be no, and it would be discriminatory were it otherwise. The Bar generally aspires to high standards in these areas.

Reply 64

emsxxx

TommehR

A caveat to the below: most of what I am going to say is stereotypical and there will of course be exceptions. I am not being snobby in any way, just stating what I feel the situation to be.

Bear in mind that just as there are different, for want of a better word, classes of solicitor (e.g. City, regional, high street) there will be different classes of barristers. Generally speaking the top commercial sets in London will be quite snobby. Bog-standard criminal sets in Bolton, less so. The latter is going to have a lot of difficult attracting the top students from Oxbridge.

Woah, woah, woah. A first from Oxbridge and a Distinction in the BCL? I'd be interested to see a set of chambers where the majority of barristers have those qualifications. Care to provide examples?

All the top commercial sets, e.g:

Blackstone
4 Pump Court
Brick Court
Essex Court
Fountain Court

... and the juniors usually finished first in their year, outstanding in BVC, numerous prizes and publications aswell...

I rest my case.

Reply 65

TommehR

After looking at Blackstone chambers, while Oxbridge seems to be dominant (I didn't doubt this), I wouldn't say that the majority of them did the BCL. Postgraduate maybe, but not BCL specifically. That said, I'm prepared to accept your general point. I wasn't aware just how well qualified those at the top commercial sets are.

Also, where are you finding this information about juniors finishing first in their year, their BVC results and their prizes?

Edit: Although that said, hardly any of those at 4 Pump Court seem to have these ridiculous levels of qualification. A lot of them seem to have MAs from Cambridge but it's standard practice for people to get awarded those five or so years after they complete their undergraduate degrees.

Reply 66

Nana_Julia

TommehR

4 Pump Court is the most random addition ever, it is not one of the top top commercial sets, it is not even predominantly commercial! But see Doughty Street for people who want to do human rights - you pretty much have to have saved an African country from starvation at the age of 13 - and see the pupils' CVs, bearing in mind the chances are only one or two will actually be given tenancy!

Reply 67

Evil_Genius

Doughty Street rejected me for a mini pupillage. How dare they. I think I'll go cause an economic crisis in Zaire and then save the day. That'll show them.

On a more serious note, I'm facing a quandary as to whether to use my precious OLPAS slots and apply for the 'dream sets' or be more realistic...If I don't try, though, will I ever forgive myself and stop thinking there might have been a chance of success?

Reply 68

Chocca

Nana_Julia

LOL.

Reply 69

mariad

I know this has nothing to do with the thread, and I hope no-one minds, but how do yuo quote posts? I checked the 'help' page on this website, but I can't find the answer.
Thanks

Reply 70

TommehR

mariad

I know this has nothing to do with the thread, and I hope no-one minds, but how do yuo quote posts? I checked the 'help' page on this website, but I can't find the answer.
Thanks

There's a an orange box entitled 'Quote' in the bottom right hand corner of the post that you wish to quote. Click that and it will take you through to another page. Write your message after the [ /QUOTE] command.

Reply 71

mariad

Oh god, it's so simple now I know - I didn't even see the orange quote box until you mentioned it.lol Thanks.

No problem. :smile:

In the CVs of juniors they often mention 1st in year etc.

go to http://www.rollonfriday.co.uk and go to the trainee discussion board. There is a thread on barristers v solicitors (do a search) which has everything and more on these points, from applicants, pupils and juniors themselves.

Reply 74

xStarscreamx

I can't believe this topic has garnered so much discussion.

Is it necessary to go to Oxbridge to become a barrister: obviously untrue - there are many barristers who did not.

Do would-be barristers from Oxbridge usually have an advantage over their competitors: almost as equally, obviously true.

How big is the advantage: it is very hard to say, but would depend on a number of variables.

Reply 75

ninon

Go check out the website of 2 Bedford Row, ranked by the Legal 500 as a top tier criminal set - the tenants there from the most senior to the most junior have particularly diverse backgrounds.

Yes the top civil sets are Oxbridge heavy, but you are looking at a very small snap shot of the bar when you focus on chambers such as Blackstones.

Reply 76

mr_lawyer

Simon's stat is actually quite encouraging.

3000 applicants, 49% DID get interview, i.e. roughly the number of people doing the BVC.

Reply 77

Chocca

Getting a first is so important for commercial/chancery sets...believe me please.

Reply 78

Legal_Jim

From speaking with a number of solicitors / barristers it seems that in some cases they actually prefer GDL students, since they may have specialist knowledge of another area (i.e. psychology, medicine, criminology etc), or they may be able to demonstrate a commitment to a law career by the other experience on their CVs.

I think both routes have their pros and cons. As Simon mentioned earlier, people mature at different rates, and not everyone decides that law is for them when they are at school.

Reply 79

HLadyship

Ok just found this and going back to a comment made at the top about the Computer Science grad from Sheffield. As a Sheffield Grad myself will point out that the Computer Systems engineering department is very highly rated one the top two in the country I believe (Sheffield Hallam - the city's exPoly) being the other - not my degree but know a lot of people who did. Sheffield it sounded from the post was being devalued. It is a redbrick, Russell Group Uni former Times Uni of the Year with a very good reputation. Things are changing at the bar. More Oxbridge grads are avoiding the uncertainty of the bar in favour of big money secure TCs and Chambers are starting to recognise that Oxbridge isn't the be all and end all of Universities. Think as long as you make the most of your opportunity and can back it up you'll do fine. After all if all you have is an Oxbridge degree and nothing else on your CV what's the point?