Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by Jangrafess
Are you making a sweeping statement for all of the TSR Socialists, or do you mean this for yourself?
What UKEbert said. But I did phrase poorly: we are strict socialists in a lot of ways; we just don't meet with the extreme and stereotypical view of us.
Why not?
LOL. How can you? The ideology would be WWBD (what would Blair do?). Are you planning to call him up every day, describe the political and economic climate, explain the problem, and then get him to tell you what to do?
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by The Humble Mosquito
LOL. How can you? The ideology would be WWBD (what would Blair do?). Are you planning to call him up every day, describe the political and economic climate, explain the problem, and then get him to tell you what to do?
Well, that's obviously not what I meant. I meant, why can't we hold the same political idealogy as him, possibly based on actions he took in the past. Not why can't Blair be our Messiah.
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Ie, the third way.
I think suggesting that Thatcher supported Pinochet is an example of her having dirty skeletons in the closet is somewhat ignorant of the real-politik of the situation. The world is not a happy place, and you can't play moral overseer and refuse to take a side. It just doesn't work if you're a nation like Britain (ie, a key economic and military player, especially during the cold war, thawed though it was by this point), and in the case of international relations, sometimes you have to support the enemy of your enemy. She was the leader of this country, if she had desires to enact Pinochet-esque deeds, which presumably is what you're suggesting to, she's hardly have to live through Pinochet - she's already been acused of using the police to disrupt strikes.
People always, also, reference her "destruction" of mining communities as if she stopped their profitable work and refused to let them get another job. She did nothing of the sort. The only reason they had jobs in the first place was because the government was giving them hand-outs. Blaming Thatcher for their loss of jobs is like having a go at a parent who's split up with their partner and doesn't spoil their child like the parent that the child used to live with did. The kid might not be used to it, but unless you plan to continue giving that kid money for the rest of its life, it has to learn to fend for itself. It's the actions of the previous governments that made the fall so hard, not Thatcher. If they'd never been given susidies in the first place, it would have been a far slowly transition as it gradually became less profitable and people gradually trained in other industries.
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by oriel historian
Alastair is correct about my intentions but mate, look at your history books. Thatcher supported General Pinochet right through the 1980s. A man who made thousands 'disappear' and curtailed democratic rights. I'm sorry but she really does have a problematic record if you dig under the surface. Salvador Allende won a legitimate election in 1970 and was killed fighting against American-backed insurrectionists on September 11th (!) 1973. Democracy disrupted because Nixon hated the Left. Thatcher supported that regime and gave British consent to what was going on in Chile. She's not the saint people think she is.
And Castro was a supporter of the USSR! A regime responsible for more deaths than Nazi Germany and who first implemented the work camp on an industrial scale. Neither is Castro "a hero" in any sense of the word.
With regards to the "September 11th (!) 1973" comment, i'm not quite sure what you mean. Could it possibly be a Thatcher-Bush conspiracy to rule the world? I heard that George's thirst for blood is insatiable. No bull.
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Firstly, Oriel Historian, Allende was not "killed"- he did a final broadcast to the people then shot himself. Secondly, I'd be surprised if anyone truly thought Maggie was a saint- she was a politicians- none of them have entirely clean hands. The difference between Maggie and Castrito is that Castro not only supported a country which killed thousands and made thousands more disappear, he did those things himself. That's not something you can accuse Thatcher of which is why I said your analogy wasn't fitting. Preferable is the comparison between Fidel Castro and General Franco.
Finally the September 11th (!) comment, my dear skipper, is supposed to say, I believe, on the same date the Americans complained when terrorists killed many Americans in the twin towers, while nearly 20 years earlier the Americans were doing a very similar thing in Chile, continuing their trend of removing democratically elected presidents and replacing them with right-wing leaders of their own choosing (See also Bolivia, and the brief removal of Hugo Chavez in 2001 or 2002)
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by Llamaaa
Finally the September 11th (!) comment, my dear skipper, is supposed to say, I believe, on the same date the Americans complained when terrorists killed many Americans in the twin towers, while nearly 20 years earlier the Americans were doing a very similar thing in Chile, continuing their trend of removing democratically elected presidents and replacing them with right-wing leaders of their own choosing (See also Bolivia, and the brief removal of Hugo Chavez in 2001 or 2002)
Thank you I realise this. It was a jab at the ridiculous claim that Sept. 11th was a conspiracy by the Bush administration for an excuse to invade Iraq.
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by Skipper
Thank you I realise this. It was a jab at the ridiculous claim that Sept. 11th was a conspiracy by the Bush administration for an excuse to invade Iraq.
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by DanGrover
People always, also, reference her "destruction" of mining communities as if she stopped their profitable work and refused to let them get another job. She did nothing of the sort. The only reason they had jobs in the first place was because the government was giving them hand-outs. Blaming Thatcher for their loss of jobs is like having a go at a parent who's split up with their partner and doesn't spoil their child like the parent that the child used to live with did. The kid might not be used to it, but unless you plan to continue giving that kid money for the rest of its life, it has to learn to fend for itself. It's the actions of the previous governments that made the fall so hard, not Thatcher. If they'd never been given susidies in the first place, it would have been a far slowly transition as it gradually became less profitable and people gradually trained in other industries.
QFT.
I'm no massive fan of Thatcher, but seriously - I don't see how people can manage to convince themselves that somehow the miners deserved to be getting hand outs from ordinary taxpayers who were genuinely contributing to the economy. An unproductive class (i.e. the miners) taking the value of the excess labour of the workers (i.e. productive taxpayers) through control (i.e via the unions) of the means of production - doesn't that ring a bell for some of you leftists?
Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
Originally Posted by hldomster
What is the political ideology of the TSR Socialist Party? Are you Marxists, Leninists, syndicalists, social democrats etc.
We're a big tent. Basically, anybody who self-identifies as a socialist can (within reason*) join.
*= If I think somebody's politics are suspect (a national socialist, for example), then I'll discuss it internally with the party before I accept their request...
TSR's model parliament.
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Re: Socialists Question Time AKA 'Ask a Socialist'
