[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
You'll find that I'm a libertarian - not a Tory.

There's little difference to me. You both want the same things and use the same means to achieve them.

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
There's little difference to me. You both want the same things and use the same means to achieve them.

What do you mean by "same means"?....

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
What do you mean by "same means"?....

Using every effort possible to let loose the restraining bolts on the monster known as capitalism. All in the name of "freedom". Which, of course, is a misnomer - it means liberty for the wealthy to further screw us all. Throw away the economic condoms one and all.

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Using every effort possible to let loose the restraining bolts on the monster known as capitalism. All in the name of "freedom". Which, of course, is a misnomer - it means liberty for the wealthy to further screw us all. Throw away the economic condoms one and all.

"What's good for the goose is good for the gander"

We don't know what capitalism is - there has never been a truly free market.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander"

We don't know what capitalism is - there has never been a truly free market.

Thank ****ing christ for that. If this mess of endless privatisation is anything to go by, the world is better off without a free market.

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Thank ****ing christ for that. If this mess of endless privatisation is anything to go by, the world is better off without a free market.

Because the state is so much more efficient than private companies. If governments ran nationalised companies like their private counterparts then I think I might be a Marxist.

But they can't and never will.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
Because the state is so much more efficient than private companies. If governments ran nationalised companies like their private counterparts then I think I might be a Marxist.

But they can't and never will.

By efficient, you mean run on business principles. Hardly a fair comparison. Historically, the state has delivered better and more democratic healthcare and education than the private sector, it has delivered large infrastructure projects more effectively and democratically than the private sector (with the sole exception of the railways and even those were enabled by the state) and so on. Government "companies" cannot be run like their private counterparts because they are not run on the basis of the profit motive. Instead they are run to deliver services to everyone without prejudice. That is a far nobler goal than Libertarians will ever understand.

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
By efficient, you mean run on business principles. Hardly a fair comparison. Historically, the state has delivered better and more democratic healthcare and education than the private sector, it has delivered large infrastructure projects more effectively and democratically than the private sector (with the sole exception of the railways and even those were enabled by the state) and so on. Government "companies" cannot be run like their private counterparts because they are not run on the basis of the profit motive. Instead they are run to deliver services to everyone without prejudice. That is a far nobler goal than Libertarians will ever understand.

Do you think that the NHS is efficient?

[Keckers]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Using every effort possible to let loose the restraining bolts on the monster known as capitalism. All in the name of "freedom". Which, of course, is a misnomer - it means liberty for the wealthy to further screw us all. Throw away the economic condoms one and all.

Oh come off it adorno.

Even you are above this ridiculous emotive argument used by socialists. Don't pretend otherwise.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Keckers)
Oh come off it adorno.

Even you are above this ridiculous emotive argument used by socialists. Don't pretend otherwise.

Yes, I am rather pushing the point beyond its tolerable limits. But how else am I meant to break the warp speed barrier man? How else!

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
Do you think that the NHS is efficient?

In its original form? Yes. In its current, marketised form? No.

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
In its original form? Yes. In its current, marketised form? No.

No and no. Rather than the almost complete monopolisation of the health market, more competition has to be brought in to allow private companies to compete for contracts to offer better services to the people of the UK.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
No and no. Rather than the almost complete monopolisation of the health market, more competition has to be brought in to allow private companies to compete for contracts to offer better services to the people of the UK.

With all due respect, you asked my opinion and I gave it.

[Smack]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
No and no. Rather than the almost complete monopolisation of the health market, more competition has to be brought in to allow private companies to compete for contracts to offer better services to the people of the UK.

We already have private healthcare in the UK that people can use if they want or can afford it.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Smack)
We already have private healthcare in the UK that people can use if they want or can afford it.

Have you tried using private healthcare here... it could be better, yes it is better than the NHS but it could still be better.

[Smack]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Have you tried using private healthcare here... it could be better, yes it is better than the NHS but it could still be better.

Well that's private healthcare's fault then.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Smack)
Well that's private healthcare's fault then.

I kind of have to agree again... as much as I favour privatisation of the NHS, I am ever increasingly wary that privatisation may not achieve what I hope it could.

At the very least though the NHS needs to be rebuilt from the ground up rather than continuous building on faulty foundations.

[Smack]

My dad gets private healthcare via his work and it's good for non-vital things (he used it once to get an operation in a few weeks that had a year's waiting list on the NHS) but generally it cannot compete with NHS Grampian, which is actually pretty good, although in other parts of the country where the local NHS service might not be that good I can see the appeal of it.

[CyclopsRock]

Well the private healthcare system we have in the UK is based around the existence of the NHS. You can't have a gargantuan, state-funded monster exist in an industry and not expect it to distort what's going on in the other, small slither that's private.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by CyclopsRock)
Well the private healthcare system we have in the UK is based around the existence of the NHS. You can't have a gargantuan, state-funded monster exist in an industry and not expect it to distort what's going on in the other, small slither that's private.

That goes for the other way around though. You can't have a state-funded minnow picking up the pieces that the capitalist monster doesn't want without serious problems and people being left without adequate, first-world healthcare.