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Liber Question Time - Ask a Libertarian

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Post on TSR and win a prize! Find out more... 10-04-2014
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    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    There will always be art. The government shouldn't throw money theatres and music groups that aren't financially stable - this means that only the best survive.
    Really? The best or the most financially successful?
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    But even that is framed in your market-language. To me, the market is an economic creation which serves as a interface for that aspect of one's life. But that's it. In that sense, yes it is an entity that you believe in. It's the one true god of Libertarian philosophy.
    Not at all, it's just the consequence of people doing things. People doing things is the centre of libertarian philosophy. We call a lot of people doing things the market, but it's a massive oversimplification, and I think (hope) that Libertarians realise that. In the same way thermodynamics is excellent at describing the state of a system, but terrible at letting you know anything about individual constituents of the system.

    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Really? The best or the most financially successful?
    Who decides on the best? It's something completely subjective. Is an arts board any better at deciding which painting is the 'best' compared to Joe Public wandering around a gallery?
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Really? The best or the most financially successful?
    The best will normally mean the most financially successful, not in all, but in most.
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    (Original post by Keckers)
    Who decides on the best? It's something completely subjective. Is an arts board any better at deciding which painting is the 'best' compared to Joe Public wandering around a gallery?
    Well that would be why the Arts Council doesn't involve itself in what goes in a gallery, merely the how it gets there. It's a curator's job or an exhibiting artist's job to determine what gets hung and where. Whether Joe Public likes everything he sees, something, or nothing is rather up to him.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    People do create art and view it regardless of economic circumstance. They draw pictures, take photographs, write poems or short stories at given moments in their lives. But actually forging a career out of it, is something rather different. I decried, if I remember rightly and apologies if it's on the blink, the notion that there is a single form of Welsh culture that should be upheld. That's the middle-class fantasy.
    I don't think I've ever insisted there is a single form of Welsh culture. I merely said I think it's important to remember prior forms of Welsh culture, even if we do not continue to abide by those cultural structures any more.
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    (Original post by TopHat)
    I don't think I've ever insisted there is a single form of Welsh culture. I merely said I think it's important to remember prior forms of Welsh culture, even if we do not continue to abide by those cultural structures any more.
    That's what historians are for. Or documentary makers for television and radio.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Hah, you're not really convincing me! The arts can be helped by government, though.
    I've never understood this argument. It is relayed to me constantly and yet there's something deep within me that reacts with utter puzzlement. I can understand why people might advocate the state helping the poor through welfare benefits or the unhealthy through insurance or a nationalised healthcare system, but funding something as wide-ranging an innocuous as art? I draw the line there.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    I've never understood this argument. It is relayed to me constantly and yet there's something deep within me that reacts with utter puzzlement. I can understand why people might advocate the state helping the poor through welfare benefits or the unhealthy through insurance or a nationalised healthcare system, but funding something as wide-ranging an innocuous as art? I draw the line there.
    Well the arts aren't limited simply to paintings and drawings. There's theatre, music, literature, poetry. But I am almost certain you know that. The state supports these things because they are good and healthy things for a society to have and to partake in them. Yet, private finance of them rarely works effectively and certainly does not make access to them as widespread as possible. The state acts as a supporting hand, in that sense.
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    Nah, man. Relegate that stuff to charities. I don't wanna be paying for no rubbish. And I say that as someone who is, effectively, a professional artist.

    (key word there being "professional")
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    Nah, man. Relegate that stuff to charities. I don't wanna be paying for no rubbish. And I say that as someone who is, effectively, a professional artist.

    (key word there being "professional")
    Well me too as a published author. I just ... charities do some of it, sure, but the balancing act is provided by the Arts Council and bodies of that kind. If you get rid of those, I don't think the charities could take the slack. That would weaken the arts in Britain, I believe, and I don't think we should be in the business of doing that. It's the same as funded research. Charities don't really provide funding for the arts and humanities. They plough money into science and history of medicine but very little elsewhere.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Well me too as a published author. I just ... charities do some of it, sure, but the balancing act is provided by the Arts Council and bodies of that kind. If you get rid of those, I don't think the charities could take the slack. That would weaken the arts in Britain, I believe, and I don't think we should be in the business of doing that. It's the same as funded research. Charities don't really provide funding for the arts and humanities. They plough money into science and history of medicine but very little elsewhere.
    People love dead bodies, what can I say.

    I just find it very difficult to justify taking the product of someone's labour from them so that a largely unaccountable entity (how can you ever make the quality of output from such a council quantifyable or measurable? What is the metric for success there?) can spend it on some sort of art project that it's entirely possible no one will like - especially when there is plenty of 'art' out there. I've seen a lot of great publically funded drama, and I've seen a lot of bad ones too. The same is true of the private sector. If we're spending 0.01% of our GDP on arts, how do we know that's enough? Too much, too little? In an environment where we do actually have a healthy creative sector, how do you rationally justify taking money from people to pay for something they probably don't want (else it could all be done privately), and why doesn't that justification extend to double the amount - or reduce to only half the amount?
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Well me too as a published author.
    What've you had published? That's quite impressive.
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    People love dead bodies, what can I say.
    They do, it's true!

    I just find it very difficult to justify taking the product of someone's labour from them so that a largely unaccountable entity (how can you ever make the quality of output from such a council quantifyable or measurable? What is the metric for success there?) can spend it on some sort of art project that it's entirely possible no one will like - especially when there is plenty of 'art' out there. I've seen a lot of great publically funded drama, and I've seen a lot of bad ones too. The same is true of the private sector. If we're spending 0.01% of our GDP on arts, how do we know that's enough? Too much, too little? In an environment where we do actually have a healthy creative sector, how do you rationally justify taking money from people to pay for something they probably don't want (else it could all be done privately), and why doesn't that justification extend to double the amount - or reduce to only half the amount?
    I see what you mean, I really do. I suppose the caveat I would introduce is that the state can distribute funding around the country whereas in many areas the private sector is so weak that it just wouldn't be able to fund artistic endeavours on top of keeping itself going. In that instance, it means we get art outside of London. And a healthy thing for society it is too.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    They do, it's true!



    I see what you mean, I really do. I suppose the caveat I would introduce is that the state can distribute funding around the country whereas in many areas the private sector is so weak that it just wouldn't be able to fund artistic endeavours on top of keeping itself going. In that instance, it means we get art outside of London. And a healthy thing for society it is too.
    How about this as a compromise - massive, enormous tax cuts for the creative industries. Perhaps even targeting outside of London (though I'm not a fan of targeted tax cuts, they are at least better than targeting spending!). That way, it still has to appeal to people, the government are still contributing, and art that would otherwise not get made becomes more financially viable. Everyone's a happy sailor!
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    How about this as a compromise - massive, enormous tax cuts for the creative industries. Perhaps even targeting outside of London (though I'm not a fan of targeted tax cuts, they are at least better than targeting spending!). That way, it still has to appeal to people, the government are still contributing, and art that would otherwise not get made becomes more financially viable. Everyone's a happy sailor!
    You're kinda missing the point, i think. Pop music is an excellent demonstration of what the market does to art.

    Although, i've never thought about my views on this subject interestingly enough
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    (Original post by paperclip)
    You're kinda missing the point, i think. Pop music is an excellent demonstration of what the market does to art.

    Although, i've never thought about my views on this subject interestingly enough
    Yeah, but this is exactly the kind of elitist attitude that causes people to hate their money being spent on crap they don't like.

    PS how many of your favourite bands are funded by the government? How many of your favourite festivals organised by your council?
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    Yeah, but this is exactly the kind of elitist attitude that causes people to hate their money being spent on crap they don't like.
    I was going to say that but went to make a cup of tea instead!

    PS how many of your favourite bands are funded by the government? How many of your favourite festivals organised by your council?
    In my case, quite a few but then I am a fan of folk music and spent a long time playing in orchestras.
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    Yeah, but this is exactly the kind of elitist attitude that causes people to hate their money being spent on crap they don't like.

    PS how many of your favourite bands are funded by the government? How many of your favourite festivals organised by your council?
    :rofl: Funding.

    If you're gonna analyse my recreational life, i think you'll quickly learn that most of it is anarchist-esq - squat parties, festivals with crazy ridiculously left wing farm owners, music that is so unprofitable the scene is (almost) exclusively underground, and most artists have a day job (psy-trance)

    Oh, and frontroom DJs, the best.
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    How about this as a compromise - massive, enormous tax cuts for the creative industries. Perhaps even targeting outside of London (though I'm not a fan of targeted tax cuts, they are at least better than targeting spending!). That way, it still has to appeal to people, the government are still contributing, and art that would otherwise not get made becomes more financially viable. Everyone's a happy sailor!
    Tax cuts / public spending. The result is the same in the end.

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