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Liber Question Time - Ask a Libertarian

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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    This is basically why I'm not a Libertarian any more and once you unravel this argument about culture, for me, it unravels the whole theory.
    Your not saying anything, you're just being circular. I'm wrong because you're right because I'm wrong. Da ***? Construct a logical argument for your view that culture needs to be protected. As a consequentialist and someone who changes his mind pretty often, I'm willing to listen but I'm just not seeing any arguments.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Your not saying anything, you're just being circular. I'm wrong because you're right because I'm wrong. Da ***? Construct a logical argument for your view that culture needs to be protected. As a consequentialist and someone who changes his mind pretty often, I'm willing to listen but I'm just not seeing any arguments.
    Basically I just wanted to hear someone answer that question in a Libertarian way to reassure myself I wasn't just missing an obvious point and that, in fact, I didn't agree with the Libertarian solution. I don't so I'm perfectly happy to continue on, I don't want to argue about it.

    I believe it's important to preserve and nurture culture, you believe otherwise. What is there to argue about? It's a belief.
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    Basically I just wanted to hear someone answer that question in a Libertarian way to reassure myself I wasn't just missing an obvious point and that, in fact, I didn't agree with the Libertarian solution. I don't so I'm perfectly happy to continue on, I don't want to argue about it.

    I believe it's important to preserve and nurture culture, you believe otherwise. What is there to argue about? It's a belief.
    There must be a basis for your belief. Do you think your belief has a rational basis? If so, then that implies that my belief doesn't have a rational basis considering their contradictory hence I'd like to see why it doesn't.

    If you aren't using rationality to construct your beliefs and are coming from a emotional point of view for your attachment to certain cultural practices, fair enough.
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    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    I'm not really too sure about what you mean by "externality", I've never done any economics in my life.
    What is an Externality?

    In short an externality ('negative externality' to be precise in this context) is a situation in which an activity of one party causes indirect harm or damage in the form of costs to be incurred by third parties, for example, pollution.

    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    Basically I just wanted to hear someone answer that question in a Libertarian way to reassure myself I wasn't just missing an obvious point and that, in fact, I didn't agree with the Libertarian solution. I don't so I'm perfectly happy to continue on, I don't want to argue about it.

    I believe it's important to preserve and nurture culture, you believe otherwise. What is there to argue about? It's a belief.
    Hi Norfolkadam! Long time, no see. Hope you're well dude. Hey I believe it's important to preserve and nurture culture too!

    However, I think it's wrong to lobby government to protect your or my own taste in culture. If you think about it, the principle behind demanding state funding of British culture is not really that different from the nationalist principle of demanding state laws to protect British culture. But you might not have looked at it in this way because you feel that preserving the arts is tasteful whereas preserving identity isn't. I don't mean to suggest that it's the same thing (clearly one is a fiscal demand, whereas the other is regulatory one), but the principle behind each argument has the same conservative/nationalist roots.

    The issue of state-subsidy for the arts was brought up recently at post #2741 and discussed all the way to post #2807. However, I must ask why you feel that a removal of state-funding would devolve culture into 'mush'? There isn't any objective standard of criteria for what makes cultural output worth protecting. As much as I may admire 18th century British art, it would be somewhat elitist of me to suggest that this is culture which ought to be subsidised by public funding over alternative or even urban culture.

    The greatest weakness of the case for subsidising the arts lies in the evidence that they can actually flourish without such aid. They survived in this country for centuries, primarily on the income that their practitioners could earn from the public, at times when personal incomes were a fraction of present levels. A lot of theatrical activity in the UK is still unsubsidised. Lastly, public funding has a regressive effect on income distribution. The rich benefit more from these subsidies than the poor and it allows governments and government agencies to influence the development of the arts.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    The greatest weakness of the case for subsidising the arts lies in the evidence that they can actually flourish without such aid. They survived in this country for centuries, primarily on the income that their practitioners could earn from the public, at times when personal incomes were a fraction of present levels. A lot of theatrical activity in the UK is still unsubsidised. Lastly, public funding has a regressive effect on income distribution. The rich benefit more from these subsidies than the poor and it allows governments and government agencies to influence the development of the arts.
    You're alive then mouse. It's not entirely true to say that they survived for centuries because of the money practitioners earned from the public since, in most cases, the arts were patronised by the wealthy for the consumption of wealthy. Public funding eased that in the twentieth century. You're right that most theatrical and musical activity that goes on is indeed unsubsidised but that's the flaw of a London-centric funding system dominated by the Department for Media, Culture and Sport. It certainly wasn't the intention when the Arts Council was set up by Harold Wilson's Labour Government in the mid-1960s.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    You're alive then mouse.
    :teehee: Yet to be caught by a cat!

    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    It's not entirely true to say that they survived for centuries because of the money practitioners earned from the public since, in most cases, the arts were patronised by the wealthy for the consumption of wealthy.
    Actually you're right in a way. Demand for art among individuals did not grow fast in the 16th century but a market developed quickly in the late 17th century to meet this demand. Eventually, the role of the patron had become unimportant by the middle of the 18th century, with artists painting to commissions or selling through dealers. In the 19th century the market for paintings continued to grow with incomes, although of course the demand for art has more recently been weakened by the growth and development of photography and moving image.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    :teehee: Yet to be caught by a cat!
    You know the song: there are no cats in America!


    Actually you're right in a way. Demand for paintings and sculptures among individuals did not grow fast in the 16th century but a market in art developed quickly in the late 17th century to meet this demand. Eventually, the role of the patron had become unimportant by the middle of the 18th century, with artists painting to commissions or selling through dealers. In the 19th century the market for paintings continued to grow with incomes, although of course the demand for art has more recently been weakened by the growth of photography and the availability of reproductions.
    Ah well yes the arrival of the market changed everything.
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    I have to agree with you on this paperclip, how can anyone live on 8.000€ it is beyond me and like you said that is poverty in this country.

    Are you serious? :eek: how? :holmes:
    Are you serious?

    You mean to tell me that you cannot live of £8k? That such a scenario is unfathomable to you? From your distinctly haughty tone of voice, I can only conclde that you think £8k is discernible with death or non-existence (i.e. starvation, hyperthermia etc ...) ???

    How old are you exactly? What kind of 'hardship' have you had to deal with? Has it ever struck you that other people can manage their lives, on much less than you, and still get to the end of the drive perfectly well? Is it really, and honestly, "beyond you"? Realllly?? Have you realised that living off £8k would necessitate trimming away some of the frippery that I can only justifiably assume you cannot live without! You know ... that playstation 3 for instance ...

    I don't think you know what homelessness is ...
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Are you serious?

    You mean to tell me that you cannot live of £8k? That such a scenario is unfathomable to you? From your distinctly haughty tone of voice, I can only conclde that you think £8k is discernible with death or non-existence (i.e. starvation, hyperthermia etc ...) ???

    How old are you exactly? What kind of 'hardship' have you had to deal with? Has it ever struck you that other people can manage their lives, on much less than you, and still get to the end of the drive perfectly well? Is it really, and honestly, "beyond you"? Realllly?? Have you realised that living off £8k would necessitate trimming away some of the frippery that I can only justifiably assume you cannot live without! You know ... that playstation 3 for instance ...

    I don't think you know what homelessness is ...
    You're trying to reason with someone who pays for "escorts" and apparently snorts cocaine like it's a bag of self-raising. He's probably spent £8,000 this year on underpants.
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    I believe it's important to preserve and nurture culture, you believe otherwise. What is there to argue about? It's a belief.
    I saw Patrick Stewart babble outrageous piffle on TV recently.

    If people aren't going to the museums or theatres, it means they don't want them. What part of that don't you get? If you want people to go more (because, apparently, we don't have culture *large audible gasp*!), then go ahead and convince them ... or put on a play they want to see ... but you're not interested in that ...

    Don't you understand that the free-market involves treating people like adults - instead of Norfolkadams-of-the-world waltzing around telling people that they should see this and do that!

    What kind of ostentatious self-flattery is this? Culture is not evaporating! Its been around ever since humans evolved brains to think ...

    I'm a member of the wine club at the southbank centre. I've been to several classical music events, an operatic performance, talks and so on there ... I was going to go to some atheist talk within a few days ... but I have feeling the speaker will be neighing and squawking on the evils of atheism (which is as digestible as the Brazilian chicken heart entree dish) ... I noticed that you were palpably absent on all these events ... culture is perfectly fine. It doesn't need self-preening hero. Perhaps you're letting the rest of us down?!
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    You're trying to reason with someone who pays for "escorts" and apparently snorts cocaine like it's a bag of self-raising. He's probably spent £8,000 this year on underpants.
    Nothing wrong with any of that ... Although I have never paid for sex, I can't say that cocaine has been directly precluded from some of my sexual endeavours ...

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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Nothing wrong with any of that ... Although I have never paid for sex, I can't say that cocaine has been directly precluded from some of my sexual endeavours ...

    You probably shouldn't play hypocrite then really.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    You probably shouldn't play hypocrite then really.
    I can indulge in all of those, drink ample amounts of wine, expatiate all night about politics, have even more sex on a high (with, depending on my mood, more than one guy) ... and still think that I can, if I need to, live off £8k ...

    Compare to most people, my life is rather good. It hasn't always been so ...
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    I can indulge in all of those, drink ample amounts of wine, expatiate all night about politics, have even more sex on a high (with, depending on my mood, more than one guy) ... and still think that I can, if I need to, live off £8k ...

    Compare to most people, my life is rather good. It hasn't always been so ...
    I know, I know but hold to the memories of when life wasn't so good. It keeps your feet on the ground. Otherwise you just come across as the pie in the sky kind of Conservative who spends money on fast pleasures, (wo)men and what not. Bacchean pleasures am nice, I'm sure, but sometimes it helps to pray to the other gods too. 'Specially if you're going to berate someone who lives in a similar way... just a thought anyway. Crazylemon.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    I know, I know but hold to the memories of when life wasn't so good. It keeps your feet on the ground. Otherwise you just come across as the pie in the sky kind of Conservative who spends money on fast pleasures, (wo)men and what not. Bacchean pleasures am nice, I'm sure, but sometimes it helps to pray to the other gods too. 'Specially if you're going to berate someone who lives in a similar way... just a thought anyway. Crazylemon.
    I'm not berating anybody's life style (???) ... I'm simply disagreeing with one of their views.

    And I think there is an insult here. Do I really have to be poor and hungry to understand what that's like? Apparently I have to eat sh*t once a week, to remind my tastebuds of how unpleasant it is!

    The crazylemon I know is not nearly this provincial.

    (And this is the last word I'm saying on this ... I'm getting a headache).
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    I'm not berating anybody's life style (???) ... I'm simply disagreeing with one of their views.

    And I think there is an insult here. Do I really have to be poor and hungry to understand what that's like? Apparently I have to eat sh*t once a week, to remind my tastebuds of how unpleasant it is!

    The crazylemon I know is not nearly this provincial.
    No insult, just me being a Puritan as per usual. I think it helps to be poor and hungry to understand what that's actually like. I make the distinction between a socialist by environment and a socialist by education. The same goes with an understanding of poverty - you can understand poverty by learning about it, but you'll never understand it in the same way as someone who has lived it. The fire will never be the same.

    (And this is the last word I'm saying on this ... I'm getting a headache).
    That's a bit like pathetic fallacy.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    No insult, just me being a Puritan as per usual. I think it helps to be poor and hungry to understand what that's actually like. I make the distinction between a socialist by environment and a socialist by education. The same goes with an understanding of poverty - you can understand poverty by learning about it, but you'll never understand it in the same way as someone who has lived it. The fire will never be the same.

    That's a bit like pathetic fallacy.
    Well I'm forced to trudge on .. lest I be accused of fallacious thinking ...

    Since you've never taken coke, surely your position is lacking - what was the word - "fire". But your posts are imbued with a tone of judgement. From where does this come? Neither of us have been to Iraq or North Korea, but that doesn't stop us expressing our ideas on the war on Iraq, or North Korean economics. A chap could easily retort "oh, when you go to North Korea ... let me know!". Old people say this all the time: "when you get older, you'll understand" ... My positions are neither stultified or amplified by waving my CV. I further think there is something fundamentally wrong with someone's upbringing if you have to be poor, hungry and homeless to appreciate these things or that people live with these.

    My disagreement with the French guy is down to his childish ignorance of other people & their lives (after all, it sounds schoolboyish if a young guy has to buy a prostitute and use that much coke to get high). Either way, you should suppress this hereditary strain of puritanism. It's the only downfall in otherwise impeccable guy.
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Well I'm forced to trudge on .. lest I be accused of fallacious thinking ...
    Hehe, well it was very Dickensian. Headaches usually arise from the imbibing of whiskey or scotch rather than puritanical judgement but I can see how the latter would give rise to it too.

    Since you've never taken coke, surely your position is lacking - what was the word - "fire". But your posts are imbued with a tone of judgement. From where does this come? Neither of us have been to Iraq or North Korea, but that doesn't stop us expressing our ideas on the war on Iraq, or North Korean economics. A chap could easily retort "oh, when you go to North Korea ... let me know!". Old people say this all the time: "when you get older, you'll understand" ... My positions are neither stultified or amplified by waving my CV. I further think there is something fundamentally wrong with someone's upbringing if you have to be poor, hungry and homeless to appreciate these things or that people live with these.
    Nah, never taken coke so I'm quite happy to have the stunted embers of experience in that regard. Old people sometimes have a point, though, do they not? I think the distinction between environment and learning gives ground for appreciating that which you have not yourself tasted but, as I say, the fire of passion is stilted. Whatever I may read about the effects of coke on a person's consciousness, it's never the same as having taken the stuff yourself. Science doesn't come with a vibrating control pad.

    My disagreement with the French guy is down to his childish ignorance of other people & their lives (after all, it sounds schoolboyish if a young guy has to buy a prostitute and use that much coke to get high). Either way, you should suppress this hereditary strain of puritanism. It's the only downfall in otherwise impeccable guy.
    I can't: it's the (some might say) unfortunate mixture of Scottish and Welsh genes that produce the ultimate puritan. But I do remember you from the meet, you were amusing. Although it's a few years ago now so I have a less than perfect recollection of the events of the day.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    No insult, just me being a Puritan as per usual. I think it helps to be poor and hungry to understand what that's actually like.
    Jeez, most of my fellow Scots aren't even this bad.
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    (Original post by Internetguru)
    QFA
    Whilst your actions are one thing, in terms of political views you are very anti-state so you should probably consider the Libertarians if you are sticking around.

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