[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by mehitabel)
What's your point? If you tell me what you disagree with rather than just posting a link to a video, I might be able to respond.

Try responding to what the video shows? What is difficult?

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by mehitabel)
Which of the many points in the "movie clip" is yours?

since when do points have to belong to be valid?
Are you going to respond or waste time?

[2026]

(Original post by Shuky)
Can/should i go out and mock and gay people because they are gay and because i can do it. Can/should i go out and mock English people because say i dont like them and because i can do it.

You should not put all secularists or atheists in the same positio as you because the many i know would not advocate the mocking of ones beliefes merely because you assume you have the right to.

You've clearly not read my comment. I'm not saying that we ought to go out on the streets and mock people's belief! I'm just saying that the law should protect the right of those who wish to do so.

You use gay people as an example to clarify your point, but you forget that a religion like Islam is inherently homophobic. Tell me, should gay people have the right to demand Muslims respect them, and erase all homophobic, hateful comments from the Quran? Another example - Islam is based on the belief that Christianity has been 'corrupted'. I'm not a Christian, but if I were, I'd certainly be offended if I had to put up with Muslims going on about how my religion has been poisoned, and theirs is pure. Should Christians have the right to tell Muslims to alter their religion so that it's in line with Christian sensibilities?

[cookiemonster101]

(Original post by Lord Hysteria)
Go to the end of the clip and hear what she has to say.

I know, as I have seen it, that Islam treates women as secondary objects - remedial citizens ...

Can you explain the notion of "a man's vote is worth twice a woman's"?

How is that disagreeing with what I said? Having a culture which sees women as second-class does not make you an extremist or crazy nutter. Read Paul's letters in the Bible. He wasn't a big fan of women either.

I agree with you, many Muslims treat women as second-class citizens. It's certainly not egalitarian, and I would be a dip**** to suggest that it is. But on the whole, Islam is a peaceful religion of good people.

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by Shuky)
Can/should i go out and mock and gay people because they are gay and because i can do it. Can/should i go out and mock English people because say i dont like them and because i can do it.

Why not? Scream your lungs out if you want ... you have a right.

[ian_rider]

(Original post by Kalashnikov)
It's how people interpret the Qu'ran. Not only Islam has extremists. EVERY SINGLE RELIGION in the world has extremists of some sort.

TOTALLY TRUE!

Look at this newspaper article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1811

the number of child rapings going on here, declared "holy"

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by mehitabel)
Read Paul's letters in the Bible. He wasn't a big fan of women either.

Yes of course he wasn't !!!

Women are (and have always been) the lower level - Adam and Eve - she tempted him - she was made from his ribs .... it is disgraceful

[2026]

(Original post by Oswy)
You might want to look up 'bigot'.

You have a point, but in usual language, the term 'bigot' is associated with racist, homophobic stances, rather than political disagreement.

[cookiemonster101]

(Original post by Lord Hysteria)
Yes of course he wasn't !!!

Women are (and have always been) the lower level - Adam and Eve - she tempted him - she was made from his ribs .... it is disgraceful

So was Victorian secular culture evil too? Is everyone who pays a woman on a lower salary "extremist"?

I think sexism is very wrong but it doesn't make Islam a religion of evil people. It's just the culture of much of the world and something that we should be working to change. My original point, if you would read it, was that every religion has extremists. I didn't mention sexism.

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by mehitabel)
So was Victorian secular culture evil too? Is everyone who pays a woman on a lower salary "extremist"?

I think sexism is very wrong but it doesn't make Islam a religion of evil people. It's just the culture of much of the world and something that we should be working to change. My original point, if you would read it, was that every religion has extremists. I didn't mention sexism.

1) AT WHAT POINT did I use "extremist" - you are gaining some ground on what I say - but forgetting I didn't even say that.

2)As for your point : Islam is a religion of peace:

Surah 8, verse 60 in the Quran:

"prepare for them whatever cavalry ye are able of gathering to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies"

When we hear people saying that - they are labelled "extremist" (now I use the word) but people fail to realise it is in the Quran!



EDIT:- I am going offline now - so might respond to what you say a different time.

[Shuky]

(Original post by Lord Hysteria)
Try responding to what the video shows? What is difficult?

Ok, firstly when a man and lady get married in Islam they have a right to refuse i belive, therefore what they have done is not right to the best of my knowlege. That lady is acting like all muslim women are being opressed and this is so wrong. Many many muslim countries allow their women a lot of freedoms, and Islam teaches that youre mother is the second most important thing to you after God, that says a lot itself about women. You may then go on to argue that oh women are opressed because they are forced to put on headscarves etc but they are only in certain places not all muslim counties.

Wearing a headscarf can be interpreted in two different ways such as the belief about women in Islam, one may say the headscarf opresses women etc and another person will argue that instead of opressing or reducing the women to nothing it makes amany of them feel better about themselves as i have been told by many female converts to Islam.

Of women being treated badly in Islam i go by a big authority and that is my own mother. She does not feel that she is treated as less of a women because she is muslim compared to the non muslim women.

[ian_rider]

(Original post by Lord Hysteria)
Go to the end of the clip and hear what she has to say.

I know, as I have seen it, that Islam treates women as secondary objects - remedial citizens ...

Can you explain the notion of "a man's vote is worth twice a woman's"?

I think you are mistaken. What you are talking about is the notion that in Islam, two female witnesses are considered as equal to only one male witness. HOWEVER, this is true only in certain cases.

There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions. It says:

"Oh! ye who believe!
When ye deal with each other,
in transactions involving future obligation
in a fixed period of time
reduce them to writing and get two witnesses
out of your own men and if there are not two men,
then a man and two women, such as ye choose,
for witnesses so that if one of them errs
the other can remind her."
[Al-Qur’an 2:282]

This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her.

While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says:

"Oh you who believe!
When death approaches any of you,
(take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."
[Al-Qur’an 5:106]

"Four witnesses are required
in case of charge against chaste women,
[Al-Qur’an 24:4]

There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:

"And those who launch a charge
against their spouses, and have (in support)
no evidence but their own -
their solitary evidence can be received."
[Al-Qur’an 24:6]

The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by Shuky)
That lady is acting like all muslim women are being opressed and this is so wrong. Many many muslim countries allow their women a lot of freedoms

Unless of course you live in Saudi Arabia where a woman can't on her own sit on Starbucks.

Let's speak in reality ...

[Faiza.]

(Original post by cookieman)
No offence, but it seems like its just two different interpretations that you are talking about, and as i mentioned in my first post, I do understand this, but what context do you take these verses in? I mean if they are redundant then why keep them? They are just fueling extremists.

Please dont call me ignorant, it seems whenever I try and talk about this and ask questions this is what gets thrown in my face and no real answers are ever given.

There is only one correct interpretation of the Qur'an. Now I dunno the mindset of extremists. I dunno if they would do the same even if they wernt Muslim. But what I do know is that if they're using Islam to backup their actions, then it's all bull****. When a non-Muslim sees a verse in the Qur'an related to violence, they immediately point it out and are like 'zomg zomg, Islam is a violent religion'. They don't try to find out the story behind the verses. Why it's there. If the Qur'an was so violent, you would have the whole world in chaos. Muslims everywhere would be committing crimes etc etc. But the majority do not. That is because they know the truth of the Qur'an. If you get a tafsir [commentary of the Qur'an], it'll explain in detail why certain verses are there, what they were related to, when they were sent down etc etc. As a Muslim, there's no point in reading the Qur'an but not understanding anything, not understanding what certain verses mean, so the majority of us read the Tafsir. The Tafsir is basically the correct interpretation of the Qur'an. The extremists are those that are blinded. They're corrupted. Tbh, I dunno why they do what they do. I dunno why they use the Qur'an as an excuse.

Sorry for making this long.

[simple.]

I was shocked by this vid, i'm muslim and absolutley hate muslim extremists taking things way to far. It made me physically sick, to see how out of context it actually was. Islam is a peace loving religion but, along with other religions, there can be extremists. Furthermore, i hate the sterotypical view that all muslims only want to display a movement of terror.

Also, why is everyone posting 'anti-muslim' you tube videos?
is there really any need?

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by ian_rider)
I think you are mistaken. What you are talking about is the notion that in Islam, two female witnesses are considered as equal to only one male witness. HOWEVER, this is true only in certain cases.

It shouldn't be.

Everyone is equal ... evidently not in the legal system which portrays Islam.

[ian_rider]

Question:

Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

Answer:

The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijaab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijaab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam


1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust


The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:




Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.

Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.

Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.

Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.

Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.


2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.


Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.


Hijaab for men

People usually only discuss ‘hijaab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijaab’ for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

Hijaab for women.

The next verse of Surah Noor, says:

" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..."
[Al-Qur’an 24:31]


3. Six criteria for Hijaab.


According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijaab:

Extent:

The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijaab’.

All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.

The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.

The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.

The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.

The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.

The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.


4. Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things


Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.


5. Hijaab prevents molestation


The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.


6. Example of twin sisters


Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.


7. Capital punishment for the rapists


Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men.
Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him?
All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?


8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women

Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.


9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape


United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?


10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes


Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity

[Faiza.]

(Original post by simple.)
I was shocked by this vid, i'm muslim and absolutley hate muslim extremists taking things way to far. It made me physically sick, to see how out of context it actually was. Islam is a peace loving religion but, along with other religions, there can be extremists. Furthermore, i hate the sterotypical view that all muslims only want to display a movement of terror.
Also, why is everyone posting 'anti-muslim' you tube videos?
is there really any need?

And I hate it when non-Muslims see a bearded man and immediately keep their distance, thinking that he has a bomb under his thawb. Like yeah right.

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by ian_rider)
Question:

Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust


The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:

Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.

Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.

Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.

Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.

Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

Its the 21st Century !!

I think we have moved on ...

The woman is treated like an object - like keeping a lawn-mower in the shed - you cover it up!

HUMAN DIGNITY & RESPECT!

[Lord Hysteria]

(Original post by Faiza.)


And I hate it when non-Muslims see a bearded man and immediately keep their distance, thinking that he has a bomb under his thawb. Like yeah right.

Actaully, why do they have beards?