Pbl

Im thinking of applying to peninsula, liverpool and possibly manchester and have a few questions about pbl there. When you first started out did you find it really difficult to adjust to this type of learning? Also how do you know that you've covered everything that you need to know and how do you know if you've gone into too much depth? Also what is the role of the facilitator - how do they help the group?

Reply 1

dr2be

6

Hey. I'm a 2nd year at liverpool and we are very very very pbl orientated in first year. you have textbooks to guide you through it (martini, tortora... your anat and physiol ones) and basically read the chapter that you're going to be working on, and if after you've done the 2 week module you haven't covered as much as in there, then you know you haven't done enough. Also, look around you, is the person sitting next to you miles in front of you? okay, maybe its a one off, but generally you want to be comfy in your knowledge.The facilitator is there as a guiding hand... if you aren't working enough, not saying anything or conversely not letting anyone else say anything then they get involved. they may not be in the health sciences field so are not there to teach you. They also are a bit of a safety net if you've skipped over something huge. They mark how well the group answered the learning objectives.

Reply 2

Daveo

16

I'll get back to you on this.

Reply 3

Saffie

11

sd91

Im thinking of applying to peninsula, liverpool and possibly manchester and have a few questions about pbl there. When you first started out did you find it really difficult to adjust to this type of learning? Also how do you know that you've covered everything that you need to know and how do you know if you've gone into too much depth? Also what is the role of the facilitator - how do they help the group?

I didnt find it hard to adjust to.
The facilitator tells you if you're going off track, or if there's stuff you need to cover that you haven't. You can usually ask them for advice about how much detail's necessary. It's usually obvious for us if the lectures are overlapping with PBLs (which they usually do).

Reply 4

bright star

1

well i've just done a big course thing about pbl so i'm full of official lines about everything :angel:

i think in answer to your questions, they'd say that there is no and should be no curriculum for medical school. you should learn about the things you come across. in reality you can't say to a patient oh sorry i have no idea, you weren't on my curriculum. you just have to deal with it. they try and encourage you to learn about everything you encounter in a focussed way: to look at the cases like you do scenarios. critically analyse your knowledge and try and identify what areas you need to understand and what you should look into to be able to manage patients. so errrrm yeah.

in theory it all sounds very sensible. our facilitators job is to make sure the group stay doing pbl and not hangover recovery, to feed back what we're doing and how well we're doing it to faculty and generally to develop discussions that are happening too superficially by asking questions that require more understanding. they'll identify any major areas you've missed, or you can look up every other groups' objectives online and you'd bring back anything you thought was important to the group the next session.

in reality, there are good points and bad points. i loved how flexible my first year timetable was. i had time to do so so much and generally have a really great first year. i couldn't have been so involved with a lot of the sports and halls days out and stuff if i'd had to be in lectures all the time. i could just choose to catch up on my work in the evenings or at the weekend. you're totally flexible to learn how you want. it's also a good way to meet loads and loads of people because you have all these groups for different things, you know almost everybody.

worse points include the fact that people can't really deal with the lack of structure here so they kind of develop their own curriculum which tends to involve all the information in this book or that book which in the end is more restrictive than a proper curriculum would have been in the first place. especially as i like to be a bit more eclectic with my books. i'm basically very lazy. if you're lazy, you can get away with learning very little. i also find it can make people even more antisocial. if there was set work they just had to get done then they'd do it then come out, this way it's like there's a theoretic bottomless pit and a lot of the medics i know just work and work and it's awful. maybe that's where i'm lazy again.

in summary for me i feel i'd know more if i didn't do pbl, but i wouldn't be as happy :p:

Reply 5

Renal

17

bright star

if there was set work they just had to get done then they'd do it then come out, this way it's like there's a theoretic bottomless pit and a lot of the medics i know just work and work and it's awful. maybe that's where i'm lazy again.

I think the problem is that people don't really understand what they need to learn, I'd even include myself in this category. Some people believe that they're training to be junior doctors and will go into a PBL wanting to learn how to recognise and manage a condition or symptom. Others believe that they're training to be scientists and will focus more on the ins and outs of the biomedical processes. Very few will do a bit of both.

Reply 6

Speedbird2008

3

This is where Oxbridge's course excels - even if you don't get clinical experience at first.

I just prefer the idea of the spoon fed scientist first, Doctor second.

Though that is why KCL/UCL appeals to me... PBL is built in, though it isn't prominent - I want to be spoonfed with lectures, and then do some PBL afterwards - though more lectures than PBL unlike the newer Medical Schools...

Reply 7

iceman_jondoe

18

Speedbird2008

This is where Oxbridge's course excels - even if you don't get clinical experience at first.

I just prefer the idea of the spoon fed scientist first, Doctor second.

Though that is why KCL/UCL appeals to me... PBL is built in, though it isn't prominent - I want to be spoonfed with lectures, and then do some PBL afterwards - though more lectures than PBL unlike the newer Medical Schools...

complete agree with you spoonfed is GOOD

Reply 8

IcarusExMachina

3

Ah but being spoonfed you don't really know how to think for yourself. That's why I'm glad I did the IB (well...sort of). It encourages independent thinking - to a point. Ah well, what do I know*interrobang*...

Reply 9

Speedbird2008

3

iceman_jondoe

complete agree with you spoonfed is GOOD

Reply 10

Future Doc

13

I was talking to a med student at Barts last week *open day* and they said that partly PBL and partly early clinical exposure meant that when she was chucked onto the wards, she was more worried about if she could describe a murmur than were she should put the stethoscope. She also told me of a friend in kings *i think* who had a more lecture based structure and just panicked first days on the wards.

PBL therefore attracts me more than a "spoonfed" method. I couldn't spend five more years in education with the same teaching style as college/school.

Reply 11

Renal

17

Future Doc

she was more worried about if she could describe a murmur than were she should put the stethoscope. She also told me of a friend in kings *i think* who had a more lecture based structure and just panicked first days on the wards.

Fantastic. In the real world, nobody is really too fussed about whether you can describe the murmur - what is important is that you heard it and knew to tell someone.

Reply 12

Daveo

16

It shouldn't be about 2 distinct methods (PBL and Lectures). PBL and group discussion definitely have their positives but in my opinion a completely PBL course just doesn't work.

A much better way would be some kind of integration between the two to include a comprehensive lecture programme and PBL although no university is going to go down that route as it would be far too expensive for them. Shame though.

Reply 13

mkchelsea

1

Renal

Fantastic. In the real world, nobody is really too fussed about whether you can describe the murmur - what is important is that you heard it and knew to tell someone.

Is Barts completely PBL? They emphasised the PBL in the prospectus, but I got the imperssion that it is only partly PBL. Is that true?

Reply 14

Saffie

11

Daveo

integration between the two to include a comprehensive lecture programme and PBL although no university is going to go down that route as it would be far too expensive for them. Shame though.

BL pretty much do that... a lot of the PBLs are explained fully in concurrent lectures. I suppose we also have a 'learning landscape' element which is copying things down and looking at models/prosections. All 3 elements link together though- you often find overlaps of information which definitely drives it home.

Reply 15

Egypt

9

PBL is all well and good, but once you're on the wards, and you haven't had a PBL for 3 years and you get asked basic physiology questions which you don't know the answers to it can be quite embarassing - especially if you've finished finals....

I think in hindsight I would have prefered more basic anatomy/physiology/pharmacology and a little less communication skills and pbl.

Reply 16

bright star

1

Egypt

PBL is all well and good, but once you're on the wards, and you haven't had a PBL for 3 years and you get asked basic physiology questions which you don't know the answers to it can be quite embarassing - especially if you've finished finals....

I think in hindsight I would have prefered more basic anatomy/physiology/pharmacology and a little less communication skills and pbl.

we have pbls right through our course. i thought that's what integrated meant?

Reply 17

person 34

9

Yeah I've heard that doctors trained on PBL are very good but some of the "basics" are a bit missing. This isn't really a problem though.

Reply 18

Egypt

9

bright star

we have pbls right through our course. i thought that's what integrated meant?

Probably!

Here's an example - in our final year we got one 3 hour session on pharmacology (pharmacodynamics/kinetics, interactions/inducers/inhibitors, indications, contraindications, SEs, antidotes, doseage etc) but got 2 days on a DATE course (Doctors as teachers and educators).

The DATE course was good but 3 hours pharamacology teaching over a year???!

Pbl

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