working hours queries..

I dont understand why doctors have to work/be on call for such long hours when there are jobless doctors; why don't doctors "share" specialist training posts?

That way everyone has a job, and they can work less hours.. even if that does double the length of time it takes to specialise.

And what exactly do you think the working hours for a foundation/ST1 doctor are? Because the European Working Directive says 48 per week- but it seems this isn't reality- your hospital seniors still expect you to work longer, you just don't get paid for it. Hmm.

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Reply 1

Custer

Personally I'd much prefer to work like a mule and get lots of experience rather than working shorter hours over a longer period of time.

Reply 2

Angelil

eyeknow

Personally I'd much prefer to work like a mule and get lots of experience rather than working shorter hours over a longer period of time.

You say that, but having worked back to back late and early shifts as a hotel receptionist (which CANNOT be legal) I feel that the sheer feeling of being absolutely knackered gave me a small proportion of the feeling of what doctors and other such professionals with long working hours must go through. Trust me, you don't want it. Trust me, while working such incredibly long hours might mean you become specialised a lot faster, must it really be at such detriment to people's mental and physical health? (Getting that little rest - which doesn't necessarily encompass sleep absolutely - cannot be good for a person.) I would certainly rather specialise more slowly and live a healthier lifestyle while I'm doing it.

Reply 3

Saffie

eyeknow

Personally I'd much prefer to work like a mule and get lots of experience rather than working shorter hours over a longer period of time.

What's with the rush to get to the top?

Reply 4

Cynicism 101

I don't really know much about working hours, but working long and extra hours seems extremely appealing to me.

Yes, I have a social life, but I like work

Reply 5

Muse

I'd quite willingly work the old hours if there was no pay cut and accommodation was still free!

Reply 6

Angelil

101 Cynicism

I don't really know much about working hours, but working long and extra hours seems extremely appealing to me.

Yes, I have a social life, but I like work

Why?! All I can deduce from that is that you've never worked in a job where you've been so tired that you can't function properly, whereby you're nearly falling asleep at your desk and told to go into the staffroom and have a lie down. Trust me, you really really don't want it.

Reply 7

Fluffy

Saffie

What's with the rush to get to the top?

Age

I can't think of anything worse than a 9-5 type job, and would rather be getting experience than dragging my training out any longer...

Reply 8

Speedbird2008

From Daveo's Blog:

Lets consider for a second Mr Bone, a consultant orthopaedic surgeon. He became a consultant within about 11 years of graduating from medical school. When he qualified, he worked 100 hour weeks as a house officer and similarly throughout his training. That is about 50,000 hours or so of training.

Next, lets consider me (or equally one of my colleagues) who, having studied a PBL course doesn't know all that much to start with. If I were to become an orthopaedic surgeon about 11 years after qualifying having worked no more than 48 hours a week. I would have received about 25,000 hours of training. About half that of today's consultants. It certainly won't be considered acceptable to double the length of time it takes to become a consultant and so we're left with one scenario.

In 10, 15, 20 years time, the 'consultant led' NHS is going to be staffed by doctors with roughly half the amount of training their predecessors had.

Who would you want to replace your hip?

Reply 9

Saffie

Speedbird2008

From Daveo's Blog:

Yeah, but you could easily argue that the doctors who worked 100 hour weeks were crippled by it and worked and learnt far less efficiently.

It's a lot easier for someone to learn when they're in a good mood, had enough sleep and are eating properly and they're a lot less likely to make mistakes at work as well. 50 hours a week is still a long time.

Besides, those being trained in any surgery these days are expected to do less operations- for which there is better resources, and there are also more resources to help revise for exams.

I still don't really understand why you have to get to the top, and why you have to get there as fast as possible?

Reply 10

Saffie

Fluffy

I can't think of anything worse than a 9-5 type job, and would rather be getting experience than dragging my training out any longer...

I thought we'd all be effectively training forever anyway? Even if/when consultants.

Reply 11

Renal

Saffie

I thought we'd all be effectively training forever anyway? Even if/when consultants.

Yes, but we would have been under the old system. The difference now is that a surgeon with 25,000 hours experience is a relatively newish registrar with supervision and training from a consultant. In ten years, that 25,000 hour surgeon will be a consultant and whose going to be supervising and training them?

Reply 12

Saffie

Renal

I suppose ideally they can train themselves, heh.

Reply 13

Fluffy

Saffie

I thought we'd all be effectively training forever anyway? Even if/when consultants.

See the post with Dave's blog entry in it... I don;t want to take 30-plus years to get to consultant level because my training hours have been severely rogered...

Reply 14

Daveo

Speedbird2008

From Daveo's Blog:

Reply 15

Renal

I would point out that in a 100 hour working week a junior doctor might have got a lot of experience of patients but perhaps didn't get all that much more training.