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Free Will

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    "There can be no such thing as a decision under determinism"

    Yes there can, did you decide to reply to this post... yes, the illusion was that you were free not to do so, due to your 'unique' personality... you were compelled to.

    "How can we follow anything if we are determined?"

    Im simply asking you to follow an argument to the conclusion... this has nothing to do with Determinism what-so-ever.

    "If we dont have freewill, how?"

    Being determined does not stop you from forming opinions.

    "How can we imagine anything without freewill"

    Right now im imagining slapping your patronising arse with this keyboard, I may have been determined to say just that... it does not however, effect me from imagining anyhow.
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    (Original post by Linda)
    The uncertainty principle however states that you cannot know the position AND the momentum of a particle at a given time, so there... But quantum theory does suggest a probabilistic world, at least in one sense, that could suggest that the universe is ruled by chance.
    That is merely the copenhagen interpretation of Quantum mechanics, other interpretations include abolition of locality and solipsism. Furthermore it is only because one insist to view partticles as , uhm, particles that you get the probabilistic interpretation. If you considder them waves which develop according to a certain time dependent energy function ( Named after the guy with the "sort of" dead feline pet. ) you may very well deduce the future state of a system based on your knowledge of its current state (although the state carries less (or more depending on how you look at it) information than we would expect following teh classical interpretation.

    x(t) = exp( i( kx - ωt) )

    So there!
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    Speaking from a moral point of view, free will MUST exist - it is a pre-requisite to such important notions as justice and morality. If we did not have free will, we could not be held morally responsible for our actions - they happened because they had to happen, whether we like it or not. Therefore, we could not have a criminal justice system, as criminal law assumes that we "could have done otherwise". Since, without free will, criminals would have no choice but to commit crimes, it seems unjust to punish them.

    For those of you who are religious, free will is again a must-have. it explains the source of evil in the world, being a result of human free will. If free will did not exist, then we would be forced to conclude that God is the source of evil, which is paradoxical, if you consider God to be omnipotent and benevolent.
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    (Original post by Sofa King)
    Speaking from a moral point of view, free will MUST exist - it is a pre-requisite to such important notions as justice and morality. If we did not have free will, we could not be held morally responsible for our actions - they happened because they had to happen, whether we like it or not. Therefore, we could not have a criminal justice system, as criminal law assumes that we "could have done otherwise". Since, without free will, criminals would have no choice but to commit crimes, it seems unjust to punish them.

    For those of you who are religious, free will is again a must-have. it explains the source of evil in the world, being a result of human free will. If free will did not exist, then we would be forced to conclude that God is the source of evil, which is paradoxical, if you consider God to be omnipotent and benevolent.
    But what if we were determined to hold people responsible for their own actions, despite of teh fact that they do not have free will?
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    Technically there is no practical difference between determinism and non determinism. There is absolutely no experiment you can perform that can excuse the pun 'determine' whether we have free will.

    So morally if you commit a crime then you are just as guilty if you have free will or not. We do not have laws to punish people on some grand moral scheme, we have laws to protect others. And hey... we were always going to punish you anyway ;p, we had no choice .
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    Well, there you have it... despite your valid arguments, i have no choice but to believe in free will :confused:
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    I don't believe in free will. Mainly because you never 'make a decision'. You always choose based on your previous experiences. In my eyes that isn't free will at all.
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    I don't believe in free will. Mainly because you never 'make a decision'. You always choose based on your previous experiences. In my eyes that isn't free will at all.
    Then you are saying that people are limited to what they are, or have been, and there is no scope for human development. So there is no chance for a shy person to be anything other than shy for the rest of their lives?
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    (Original post by Sofa King)
    Then you are saying that people are limited to what they are, or have been, and there is no scope for human development. So there is no chance for a shy person to be anything other than shy for the rest of their lives?
    No... because something in that persons life would have caused them to decide to be more extrovert.
Updated: October 24, 2004
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