Should there be a royal family?

vienna95

they are a small handful of people who sacrifice their lives to maintain a substantial amount of British heritage and culture.

We all have sacrifices and negatives in our lives. The royals don't sacrifice very much compared to what most people have to. Plus most royals hardly do anything anyway.

the people who are native to this country. of which a significant proportion of the population arent. i cant expect them to understand the feeling of pride that the monarchy provides. that has been ever present throughout generations of families and the course this country has taken. however, it doesnt allow them to fully understand Britishness and thus in my opinion renders them less British in spirit.

Are you indigenous? What is a native person of this country? What is it about Britishness that I don't understand because I'm not indigenous?

Reply 82

pkonline

We all have sacrifices and negatives in our lives. The royals don't sacrifice very much compared to what most people have to. Plus most royals hardly do anything anyway.

no. sacrifice, not sacrifices in.

Are you indigenous? What is a native person of this country? What is it about Britishness that I don't understand because I'm not indigenous?

as far as my ancestry allows.
native as in being born in and having been raised in a culture indigenous to this country.
i cant tell you that, but it is evident that culture and identity are the major components of such a feeling. the monarchy is a major player in both of them and thus should stir some reaction when talk of abolishment is raised.

Reply 83

RetiredAccount89

18

pkonline

Why do you feel sorry for them? Yes they have media to worry about but thats about it. What about Joe Bloggs off the street who has worries to do with employment, money etc...

When Diana died people did react, a little OTT IMO :biggrin:

, but remember that many of these people were also very angry and the royals - it was one of their biggest low points. The reacted to the person, not institution. I'm having a go at the institution and principles of it, not the personalities that occupy it.

Vienna95, who are these indigenous people that you keep going on about? Just 'cos my parents were not born in the UK doesn't make me any less British. I just have a different view from you about what Britishness is :smile:

.

You see it's murky waters here, and something I've really never thought about.
A bit of a dodgey analogy, but I always get really pissed off when city wankers move up to the country (lincolnshire is where 75% of people moving out of london move to!) and then complain about aspects of country life. Some people make real complaints about manure, and tractors on the roads!

The analagy is with people who immigrate into the country, and then complain about institutions that have existed for centuries.

At what point do you all reckon that they should get a real right to complain? The first time they have tax deducted? when they become 2nd generation?

And dont anyone give me any racism crap. What i said applied to the likes of bill bryson too!
J

Reply 84

vienna95

native as in being born in and having been raised in a culture indigenous to this country.

What is the indigenous culture? Middle-upper class, private-educated ....... :biggrin:

There are huge variations in culture in the UK. Don't you actually mean that people who like the royals are like you and your culture - not British culture?

Reply 85

foolfarian

You see it's murky waters here, and something I've really never thought about.
A bit of a dodgey analogy, but I always get really pissed off when city wankers move up to the country (lincolnshire is where 75% of people moving out of london move to!) and then complain about aspects of country life. Some people make real complaints about manure, and tractors on the roads!

The analagy is with people who immigrate into the country, and then complain about institutions that have existed for centuries.

At what point do you all reckon that they should get a real right to complain? The first time they have tax deducted? when they become 2nd generation?

And dont anyone give me any racism crap. What i said applied to the likes of bill bryson too!
J

I can kinda understand the countryside bit but I think Britishness is different. My own view is that Britain is a mixture of different ideas and culture so by definition people moving in will be part of the culture.

Reply 86

pkonline

What is the indigenous culture? Middle-upper class, private-educated ....... :biggrin:

There are huge variations in culture in the UK. Don't you actually mean that people who like the royals are like you and your culture - not British culture?

if you want to look at indigenous in the dictionary it spells it out rather well. and i would stress that the working class northerner as described by Orwell in The Lion and the Unicorn remains a clear example.

huge variations in culture in Britain and? people who identify themselves with cultures other than the British one cant expect to fully understand the feelings of British culture. seems pretty logical.

if you are questioning these obvious points with the typical Britishness-is-just-class argument then i would get worried.

Reply 87

RetiredAccount89

18

vienna95

no. sacrifice, not sacrifices in.

as far as my ancestry allows.
native as in being born in and having been raised in a culture indigenous to this country.
i cant tell you that, but it is evident that culture and identity are the major components of such a feeling. the monarchy is a major player in both of them and thus should stir some reaction when talk of abolishment is raised.

You sound like a bloody Southern american. They always go on about being pure Anglo-saxon.
I know that at least part of my ancestry runs back to the saxon enclave at Ely, so i know im at least part 'indeginous' as you put it, but then again im doubtless mixed in with countless other country people as well
No doubt a bit of Norman, definately some greek, possibly some pikey and some irish as well.
J

Reply 88

foolfarian

You sound like a bloody Southern american. They always go on about being pure Anglo-saxon.
I know that at least part of my ancestry runs back to the saxon enclave at Ely, so i know im at least part 'indeginous' as you put it, but then again im doubtless mixed in with countless other country people as well
No doubt a bit of Norman, definately some greek, possibly some pikey and some irish as well.
J

a pure Anglo-Saxon Southern American is something of an oxymoron anyway, but i use ancestry in its proper sense, that being the origin of my descendants.

Reply 89

vienna95

people who identify themselves with cultures other than the British one cant expect to fully understand the feelings of British culture. seems pretty logical.

if you are questioning these obvious points with the typical Britishness-is-just-class argument then i would get worried.

How can you understand a culture? Maybe you can adopt a stereotype of that culture, but how can anyone actually think they know the culture of Britain. British culture is dynamic and is created by the people living in it. You have your own micro-culture and I have mine. But we both are culturally British.

I don't understand why I should have to accept and believe in certain things just cos its the 'British culture' (if that is the culture which is subjective).

Reply 90

pkonline

How can you understand a culture? Maybe you can adopt a stereotype of that culture, but how can anyone actually think they know the culture of Britain. British culture is dynamic and is created by the people living in it. You have your own micro-culture and I have mine. But we both are culturally British.

I don't understand why I should have to accept and believe in certain things just cos its the 'British culture' (if that is the culture which is subjective).

culture is adapted by growing up in it and is rather transparent. if you are growing up with influences and identity ties to other national or racial cultures then differences occur. this is the major danger with the western world at the moment and the problems of liberalisation, because it is seeking to suppress dominant culture which leads to a massive loss of identity and social binding(Holland,Belgium,Austria,Italy,France,Spain). culture is of course dynamic, but this shifts very subtlely over time according to the majority population shifts. islam and other minority cultures can have an effect on this, but as far as British culture is concerned, will always remain alien to it. culture is not just a product of society but is a foundation on which society rests. this may seem rather nationalistic, but it is precisely because people wont assimilate to the national culture identity that problems arise. in that regard, the US is far better equiped.

i dont know you so i couldnt comment, but i know British passport holders who are in no way British in values or feeling. in that respect, for them to talk about monarchy and british class makes no sense at all.

you dont have to understand or accept anything, it exists. you are what you are and you dont see the stereotype.

Reply 91

My main point is that there is no set British culture. Scots an different from the Welsh etc... plus there are differences in Northern and Southern England.

You have been brought up in a culture different to me, but who's to say that your's is more Brtish than mine? What do you compare it to?

Reply 92

Unregistered

I can't understand the problem with you people. What is so difficult to understand about culture? Of course this is politically sensitive, but please, can we all have some intellectual maturity to call a black pot black?

These are facts that are always going to be facts, no matter how much we try to hide and convolute them:
1. It is generally accepted anthropologically and historically, that England was originally inhabitated by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman people, Scotland by the Scots and Wales by the Welsh (ie. white in skin colour, really sorry if this stark piece of history offends anyone!).
2. In the 20th century, there was a massive expansion of immigration due to the policies of various British governments, and so there are many people of different ethnic backgrounds living here today.
3. Granted, many non-white people living in Britain today were probably born and brought up entirely in Britain, and they should rightly consider Britain their country, but this does NOT change history!! (ie. I am really sorry, as much as we don't like it, Henry VIII, Francis Drake, the Duke of Wellington, Queen Victoria, William Gladstone and Winston Churchill were all white, not black, Indian, Oriental or Pakistani!!).
4. Multi-culturalism is something wonderful and should be celebrated, but that does not necessarily mean that we must all pretend that England was never a white country to begin with.
5. The white culture is and very well should continue to be the dominant culture of Britain, in which all immigrants MUST adapt to (ie. we will always speak English generally, have Christmas presents, drink tea with scones and clotted cream in the afternoon and have a pint of lager in the pub at night). Of course we welcome and celebrate the diversity of cultures that other people bring, but the dominant culture remains.

To sum up my point, if Euan Blair migrates to China tomorrow to start a family with an English girl, can his children (born and brought up in China as Chinese citizens) get offended in 20 years' time if the Chinese government refuse to recognise Boxing Day and appoint them to the Cabinet?

Here again we see political correctness gone mad!

Reply 93

Unregistered

I agree with XXX. In his hypothetical situation, can Euan Blair's children really get terribly upset if their Chinese neighbours consider themselves more 'Chinese' than Euan Blair's children?

We easily accept that a white person can never be a 'Chinese' or 'Indian'. Why do we find it so necessary that a non-white person be British?

Reply 94

pkonline

My main point is that there is no set British culture. Scots an different from the Welsh etc... plus there are differences in Northern and Southern England.

You have been brought up in a culture different to me, but who's to say that your's is more Brtish than mine? What do you compare it to?

i cant, but because mine was one shared with english people with anglo-saxon, english heritage and shared by the majority of the population then it suggests i would inherit an english culture. its difficult to qualitively compare and there are slight differences naturally, which are widening because of the way our society is scared to say 'this is what we are, this is how we got here, lets protect some of that' and thus feel completely alone, away from their neighbour, their street, their town, their county. the ties are lost, their is no reassurance, a loss of identity. right or wrong, the population reacts to this very badly. they are always being told that feelings of cultural,racial, national comfort must be surpressed and then everyone becomes a minority. that is what i dislike about liberals, they segregate so they can come to you and say, 'look, we are fighting for the minority, come with us'. they like to create differences so they can profit from it.
i accept that culture is changing and that is a good thing, but it is the ignorance of the past that i find dangerous, because you need to appreciate it and build on it. Britons who might not have had a cultural background that could be identified as strictly British, need to assimilate and appreciate what they are identifying themselves with. my point was, that the monarchy, for a vast number of the British people, now and over generations, represents the country and its social fabric, not just now, but over generations and to dismiss it as 'no use to us anymore' is not only almost negligible against underlying gut responses for keeping the monarchy, but a tragedy of our rights, as the present living. if you are going to change society, it has to be give more benefit to the future than it gave to the past.

on the surface a frenchman might seem very similar to an englishman, but when there is a queue or a social occasion or a need to address someone, then you notice differences appearing. then there are moral discrepencies, tolerance, use of language, reactions, etc. economic ideals, political ideals. they are all there, and he is European and colonial just like us.

Reply 95

XXX

I can't understand the problem with you people. What is so difficult to understand about culture? Of course this is politically sensitive, but please, can we all have some intellectual maturity to call a black pot black?

These are facts that are always going to be facts, no matter how much we try to hide and convolute them:
1. It is generally accepted anthropologically and historically, that England was originally inhabitated by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman people, Scotland by the Scots and Wales by the Welsh (ie. white in skin colour, really sorry if this stark piece of history offends anyone!).
2. In the 20th century, there was a massive expansion of immigration due to the policies of various British governments, and so there are many people of different ethnic backgrounds living here today.
3. Granted, many non-white people living in Britain today were probably born and brought up entirely in Britain, and they should rightly consider Britain their country, but this does NOT change history!! (ie. I am really sorry, as much as we don't like it, Henry VIII, Francis Drake, the Duke of Wellington, Queen Victoria, William Gladstone and Winston Churchill were all white, not black, Indian, Oriental or Pakistani!!).
4. Multi-culturalism is something wonderful and should be celebrated, but that does not necessarily mean that we must all pretend that England was never a white country to begin with.
5. The white culture is and very well should continue to be the dominant culture of Britain, in which all immigrants MUST adapt to (ie. we will always speak English generally, have Christmas presents, drink tea with scones and clotted cream in the afternoon and have a pint of lager in the pub at night). Of course we welcome and celebrate the diversity of cultures that other people bring, but the dominant culture remains.

To sum up my point, if Euan Blair migrates to China tomorrow to start a family with an English girl, can his children (born and brought up in China as Chinese citizens) get offended in 20 years' time if the Chinese government refuse to recognise Boxing Day and appoint them to the Cabinet?

Here again we see political correctness gone mad!

i entirely agree.

Reply 96

Gunny

I agree with XXX. In his hypothetical situation, can Euan Blair's children really get terribly upset if their Chinese neighbours consider themselves more 'Chinese' than Euan Blair's children?

I would.

.

vienna95

i cant, but because mine was one shared with english people with anglo-saxon, english heritage and shared by the majority of the population then it suggests i would inherit an english culture.

But your culture isn't shared by the majority.

but it is the ignorance of the past that i find dangerous

Noone is suggesting forget the past, but that is what it is - the past.

My main point is that all of you seem to think there is one concrete culture that has been undisturbed and has been handed down. I disagree that this exists. Many of you may be like a stereotypical 'English' person and may be brought up in that way, and there nothing wrong with that, but go out onto the streets and see what Britain's culture is all about today.

Reply 97

Mr White

7

pkonline

and see what Britain's culture is all about today.

Hooliganism, vandalism, council estates, yob culture...

Reply 98