Jesus christ
Discuss religious, spiritual, and theological issues concerning Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.
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Since he is working from a Muslim standpoint, he has willfully taken the quotes out of context and regarding the history of christianity, it is clearly wrong, as without Jesus being part of the godhead, there is no christianity since he would not have been able to be the perfect sacrifice for sin.(Original post by 786)
Then someone of clear thinking, like yourself, will be able to see the contradictions. Do these not imply falsity and corruption? -
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(Original post by Dr_Death)
God sent his son, the Son of God became human and died for us. As Wiwarin_mir expertly states, his spirit was not destroyed but his body was.
The problem is all in what you call 'God'. If you like instead of saying God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, I'll say God, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit.
You are trying to understand God in terms of Islam. The Christian God is not the God of Islam. You must discard Islam to understand my God.
The christian god is the same god of Islam without jesus being the son of god. He isn't 'your god' he is everybodies god. Also the Koran refers alot to the people of the book, meaning Jews, Christians etc.
It is actually quite offensive to many religions when you speak your crap about your god. We all believe in the same god just in different ways. -
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It would be wrong to say that God is the same, just in different forms, as the nature of God differs depending on which religion you look at.(Original post by cooldarkness)
The christian god is the same god of Islam without jesus being the son of god. He isn't 'your god' he is everybodies god. Also the Koran refers alot to the people of the book, meaning Jews, Christians etc.
It is actually quite offensive to many religions when you speak your crap about your god. We all believe in the same god just in different ways.
Allah gives a distinctly different message to the God of the christians, in the same way that the Gods of Hinduism is completely different to the Gods of Mormanism. -
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No, I do not believe that Allah is the Christian God. My God did not send an angel to Mohammed, because the things that angel said were very different to the things my God said.(Original post by cooldarkness)
The christian god is the same god of Islam without jesus being the son of god. He isn't 'your god' he is everybodies god. Also the Koran refers alot to the people of the book, meaning Jews, Christians etc.
You are openly telling me that my beliefs are crap. Yet if I were to say that to you, I would get flamed by about a thousand members...It is actually quite offensive to many religions when you speak your crap about your god. We all believe in the same god just in different ways.
I believe in the God of the Bible. If you want to believe the same God as me, then abandon the Koran and read the Bible instead. I'm not going to pretend that your god is my God, because he isn't.
And yes, he is 'everybodies God', but you choose to believe a different god, the god of Mohammed. You can believe in my God if you want to, but you cannot believe in both of them. -
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Are you fully awake? The whole point of pedants argument was to provide evidence that the current christain theology is corrupted and not in its original form. For some reason you seem to have assumed the view that christainity is in its original form. All you have done in countering pedant's view is by saying "it is clearly wrong", made all the weaker that you yourself previously implied that there were contradictions in the bible.(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
Since he is working from a Muslim standpoint, he has willfully taken the quotes out of context and regarding the history of christianity, it is clearly wrong, as without Jesus being part of the godhead, there is no christianity since he would not have been able to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. -
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Basically you are in fact also are telling cooldarkness that the beliefs they maintain are crap. Just less directly.(Original post by Dr_Death)
No, I do not believe that Allah is the Christian God. My God did not send an angel to Mohammed, because the things that angel said were very different to the things my God said.
You are openly telling me that my beliefs are crap. Yet if I were to say that to you, I would get flamed by about a thousand members...
I believe in the God of the Bible. If you want to believe the same God as me, then abandon the Koran and read the Bible instead. I'm not going to pretend that your god is my God, because he isn't.
And yes, he is 'everybodies God', but you choose to believe a different god, the god of Mohammed. You can believe in my God if you want to, but you cannot believe in both of them. -
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(Original post by Dr_Death)
No, God became human to save us from our sin. We could not enter the presence of God because of our sin, we can not remove our sin ourselves, so Jesus removed our sins with his sacrifice.
OK. This is what I understand your beliefs to be.
1) Jesus Christ were crucified, by choice.
2) This act of compassion was so magnanimous in nature that God in turn wiped out the sins of everyone who believed Jesus christ to be saviour.
3) Sin will only be wiped if one takes this belief, i.e. follows Jesus Christ
4) Jesus, however, did not make this a requirement, made certain by what they said on the cross, so I presume it is believed to be a requirement of God's.
But I thought Jesus was God? I still don't get it, as you can see. Even if Jesus is not God, they were willing to forgive the belief of the people who crucified them(who clearly did not believe in their sacrifice), so obviously they will be willing to forgive anyone, christian or not. -
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No, that is not what I believe. This is what I believe:(Original post by 786)
OK. This is what I understand your beliefs to be.
1) Jesus Christ were crucified, by choice.
2) This act of compassion was so magnanimous in nature that God in turn wiped out the sins of everyone who believed Jesus christ to be saviour.
3) Sin will only be wiped if one takes this belief, i.e. follows Jesus Christ
4) Jesus, however, did not make this a requirement, made certain by what they said on the cross, so I presume it is believed to be a requirement of God's.
But I thought Jesus was God? I still don't get it, as you can see. Even if Jesus is not God, they were willing to forgive the belief of the people who crucified them(who clearly did not believe in their sacrifice), so obviously they will be willing to forgive anyone, christian or not.
1)Jesus is the son of God, which is not the same as saying that Jesus is God, or that Jesus and God are the same person.
2)Jesus became a human being and lived a sinless life.
3)Jesus took responsablity for all the sins we've ever made and ever will make, and died and became seperated from God as the consequence.
4)Because Jesus died, my sins have been repaid and I am now considered sinless by God.
5)Because Jesus hadn't actually sinned, Hell could not contain him, because Hell is for those who choose to go against God. So Jesus returned to Earth in a new body, then returned to Heaven.
6)He sent the Holy Spirit to live within his believers to empower and guide and comfort them.
Notice that 'punishment' is not included anywhere in my beliefs. My God does not punish people. Our decisions cause us suffering. If I decide to eat toast in the bath, and bring the toaster into the bath with me, ignoring the instruction on the side of the bath saying DO NOT PUT ELECTRICAL APPLIANCES INTO THE BATH and the sign on the side of the toaster saying DO NOT IMMERSE IN WATER and I get electricuted, it isn't a punishment from the bath and toaster company for arrogantly daring to ignore their instructions, it's the natural consequence of my foolishness in ignoring the command they gave. -
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Yes, God will forgive those who crucified Jesus, and also those who made his crucifixion necessary (which is every other human being who ever lived). Forgiveness is available to all who sincerely apologise.(Original post by 786)
But I thought Jesus was God? I still don't get it, as you can see. Even if Jesus is not God, they were willing to forgive the belief of the people who crucified them(who clearly did not believe in their sacrifice), so obviously they will be willing to forgive anyone, christian or not. -
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Wiwarin where did you get this idea from? It is interesting. I'm still not convinced by it though...(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
As I have said before, The Angel of the Lord is the Son element of the godhead in the old testiment and is mentioned quite a few times. -
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My point was that without any apology, everyone will be forgiven, proved by what Jesus said on the cross. However, you don't agee with this. Why not?(Original post by Dr_Death)
Yes, God will forgive those who crucified Jesus, and also those who made his crucifixion necessary (which is every other human being who ever lived). Forgiveness is available to all who sincerely apologise. -
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It does in that he who was called Jesus at the beginning of the New testiment was previously called The Angel of the Lord in the old testiment. Since The Angel of the Lord is no longer mentioned in the new testiment, rather 'an Angel of God' is used, it would be reasonable to say that since The Angel of the Lord is no longer mentioned, when he is mentioned so many times in the old testiment, that Tha Angel of the Lord is Jesus.(Original post by 786)
This does not answer my question, by the way.
Therefore to answer your question, Jesus has always existed. -
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What precisely are you talking about here, as I am confused. You keep talking about what Jesus said on the cross, but are giving no quotations.(Original post by 786)
My point was that without any apology, everyone will be forgiven, proved by what Jesus said on the cross. However, you don't agee with this. Why not? -
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Your conclusion cannot be made, or even mildly implied by the reasons you give. It would be much more reasonable to conclude that "angel of the lord" and "the angel of god" are equivalent. Even if Jesus was mentionned in the old testament, why would this prove that he had always existed?(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
It does in that he who was called Jesus at the beginning of the New testiment was previously called The Angel of the Lord in the old testiment. Since The Angel of the Lord is no longer mentioned in the new testiment, rather 'an Angel of God' is used, it would be reasonable to say that since The Angel of the Lord is no longer mentioned, when he is mentioned so many times in the old testiment, that Tha Angel of the Lord is Jesus.
Therefore to answer your question, Jesus has always existed.
