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Partial birth abortion:

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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    It seems strange to imply that people are having abortions for convenience without any solid evidence (even anecdotal) to back up the statement...
    Very pedantic. Incidently i know two women who have done so for convenience (1 repeatedly so, until she was forced to carry one through in the end.)
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    He should be shut down big time if that is true (that web page dates back to 1991 by the way)
    HOWEVER
    I always hate it when pro-lifers cite the most extreme abhorrent abortionists in order to further their cause.
    Foolfarian, yes, the pro lifers play up the extreme incidents, just as the pro choicers play down the incidents.
    You get different stories on each side....My point was,.. that though 3rd trimester abortions are not the norm, THEY ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL.

    My position is this, I can tolerate 1st and 2nd trimester abortions, but that's where it stops.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    I'll take that as a no then.

    It seems strange to imply that people are having abortions for convenience without any solid evidence (even anecdotal) to back up the statement...
    Pencil Queen, look at the statistics below. 1,370,000 abortions are not by woman who have been raped, abnormal fetus or life threatened.
    Of course woman have abortions for convenience, but I don't think you'll find stats on a web site.
    *******************************8
    Abortion Statistics - U.S.

    Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996. In 2001, 1.31 million abortions took place.
    88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.
    60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
    47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
    43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old.
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    "convenience" suggests ease - either in the procdure itself, in the decision making, or in being able to deal with your decision afterwards. I object to the aspersions that the term could/would/does cast on women having abortions.

    I dislike the term, but reocgnise a difference between a "lifestyle" choice (whether for selfish or altruistic resons) and medical necessity.
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    (Original post by blissy)
    "convenience" suggests ease - either in the procdure itself, in the decision making, or in being able to deal with your decision afterwards. I object to the aspersions that the term could/would/does cast on women having abortions.
    The decision and process may be extremely difficult but the point is that many women take such a decision based motivations of personal convenience.
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    It's not much different than the tactics used by the pro-choice people, who would have one believe that every abortion is the result of incestuous rape.
    Rubbish, I've never ONCE heard that argument.
    I think that the main one cited is 'a womans right to chose what to do with her body'. Because you will recall that a foetus is like a parasite to the womans body. If she decides she doesn't want to sustain it anymore, then that is her 'right''

    However, can i just share something with the 'poorly informed' group.

    According to Bush et al they define "partial birth abortion" as a procedure in which the physician "deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a headfirst presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus." Between 2200 and 5000 abortions of this type are carried out each year in the US. However it's very vague. Douglas would have you believe these are all foetuses that can survive out the body, open their eyes as they are being born and scream in agony as their brains are sucked out.
    Not so, many of these are very very tiny things and are injected (i think with something like chloroform or maybe just potassium) into they fetal heart (hence the need for partial birth).
    One of the most common reasons for this is actually when there are multiple foetuses present - something which is icnreasingly common due to IVF.
    If some aren't removed, all will probably die.

    THe bill proposed is so vague that it might outlaw vacuum aspiration abortions. Which is basically like vacuuming the womb to suck out the tiny foetus very very early on. These make up some 90% of abortion procedures in the US - much less so in the UK where the abortion pill is much more commonly used.

    AS for that guy claiming to do abortions upto 8.5 months for no good reason...well lets face it, he should be locked up.

    J
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    (Original post by blissy)
    "convenience" suggests ease - either in the procdure itself, in the decision making, or in being able to deal with your decision afterwards. I object to the aspersions that the term could/would/does cast on women having abortions.

    I dislike the term, but reocgnise a difference between a "lifestyle" choice (whether for selfish or altruistic resons) and medical necessity.
    I disagree. Some women are incredibly ruthless in how they go about these things. Several girls I am actually friends with have abortion money to pay for a private abortion should they ever get pregnant, and one of them did last year- and it was all *sorted* within a month.

    In seriousness though, partial birth abortions are sometimes NEEDED. [I speak as a Catholic profoundly against abortion] The main case is eptopic pregnancies which have severely degenerated in the later stages.
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Pencil Queen, look at the statistics below. 1,370,000 abortions are not by woman who have been raped, abnormal fetus or life threatened.
    Of course woman have abortions for convenience, but I don't think you'll find stats on a web site.
    *******************************8
    Abortion Statistics - U.S.
    Yeh its not like the good old days when we were all pure and innocent ey?
    O wait as i recall the rate of abortions in the US has decreased by circa !!50%!! in the last 20 years.

    And a further thing to couteract this 'convenience' rubbish, is that nearly all abortions are undertaken by those in the lowest socio-economic groups. People who can't afford to raise a child.
    Sure you can try and ban abortions, but then there will be an birth rate explosion in the lower classes. Maybe put up your taxes to cover them ey? how do you feel about that..?
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    Yeh its not like the good old days when we were all pure and innocent ey?
    O wait as i recall the rate of abortions in the US has decreased by circa !!50%!! in the last 20 years.

    And a further thing to couteract this 'convenience' rubbish, is that nearly all abortions are undertaken by those in the lowest socio-economic groups. People who can't afford to raise a child.
    Sure you can try and ban abortions, but then there will be an birth rate explosion in the lower classes. Maybe put up your taxes to cover them ey? how do you feel about that..?
    I think you're reasoning is foolish.... the reasons for a higher rate of abortion amongst lower socio economic groups are:

    1. Inadueqate provisions of contraception
    2. Higher rates of promiscuity
    3. Already having children

    Also this isn't always the case- before the age of 16 abortions are more common in girls from the higher socio-economic groups because of higher expectations etc
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    Yeh its not like the good old days when we were all pure and innocent ey?
    O wait as i recall the rate of abortions in the US has decreased by circa !!50%!! in the last 20 years.

    And a further thing to couteract this 'convenience' rubbish, is that nearly all abortions are undertaken by those in the lowest socio-economic groups. People who can't afford to raise a child.
    Sure you can try and ban abortions, but then there will be an birth rate explosion in the lower classes. Maybe put up your taxes to cover them ey? how do you feel about that..?
    You've never heard of adoption?
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    (Original post by tomcoolinguk)
    I disagree. Some women are incredibly ruthless in how they go about these things. Several girls I am actually friends with have abortion money to pay for a private abortion should they ever get pregnant, and one of them did last year- and it was all *sorted* within a month.
    Being prepared for the worst (when contraception fails - I assume such organised girls will be responsibly using contraception to prevent having to use their emergency funds) and planning your future is hardly ruthless (mercliess, unsparing, pitiless, compassionless).

    I am also objecting to the stereotype of the woman who glibly orders the destruction of their own child and then happily goes off to live her life just as she desires it (maybe a very few women fit into this stereotype, but I think the majortiy of women having terminations are people who would not be though of as "abortion material"). Abortion is something extremely difficult to face and ie makes me angry that commentators vilify women who undergo terminations. I personally cannot be dispassionate about such an emotive subject, when understood from the woman's perspective.
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    (Original post by blissy)
    Being prepared for the worst (when contraception fails - I assume such organised girls will be responsibly using contraception to prevent having to use their emergency funds) and planning your future is hardly ruthless (mercliess, unsparing, pitiless, compassionless).

    I am also objecting to the stereotype of the woman who glibly orders the destruction of their own child and then happily goes off to live her life just as she desires it (maybe a very few women fit into this stereotype, but I think the majortiy of women having terminations are people who would not be though of as "abortion material"). Abortion is something extremely difficult to face and ie makes me angry that commentators vilify women who undergo terminations. I personally cannot be dispassionate about such an emotive subject, when understood from the woman's perspective.
    Well these girls definitely aren't abortion material- that's for sure. The one who actually had an abortion is applying for medicine. I think you identify the weakness of your argument in the use of the word 'personally' - this hints that you realise others don't share your depth of thought about the issue etc.
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    In the States, it tends to be the main argument for their beliefs. "So, you would force a young girl who was raped by her father to have the child?!" They like to imply that people who have abortions are not having abortions for convenience, but because there was some misfortune involved in the pregnancy.
    Perhaps so, but it is a valid reason for the young girl to have the choice of abortion. Perhaps the girl falls pregnant and promptly buries her head in the sand, hoping that the problem will go away.

    What about older women who incorrectly believe that they have started the menopause getting pregnant by mistake? In such cases, the woman is not going to notice that she is pregnant for some time - perhaps until she had been pregnant for 16+ weeks. Doesn't she have the right to choose?

    I don't like the method being discussed - but this doesn't provide a reason to stop abortion, or to reduce the legal timeframe so that this method does not need to be used.
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    (Original post by blissy)
    Being prepared for the worst (when contraception fails - I assume such organised girls will be responsibly using contraception to prevent having to use their emergency funds) and planning your future is hardly ruthless (mercliess, unsparing, pitiless, compassionless).

    I am also objecting to the stereotype of the woman who glibly orders the destruction of their own child and then happily goes off to live her life just as she desires it (maybe a very few women fit into this stereotype, but I think the majortiy of women having terminations are people who would not be though of as "abortion material"). Abortion is something extremely difficult to face and ie makes me angry that commentators vilify women who undergo terminations. I personally cannot be dispassionate about such an emotive subject, when understood from the woman's perspective.
    I totally agree
    (Original post by tomcoolinguk)
    Well these girls definitely aren't abortion material- that's for sure. The one who actually had an abortion is applying for medicine. I think you identify the weakness of your argument in the use of the word 'personally' - this hints that you realise others don't share your depth of thought about the issue etc.
    I share blissy's 'depth of thought about the issue'. I actually believe that terminating a pregnancy (and accepting that you will have to think about what you did every day for the rest of your life, wondering if it was the right thing to do or not, and having to justify yourself everytime the subject is brought up) can be the responsible thing to do if you're not ready or don't have the life experience/money/time/education...etc...etc. to have a baby and raise it for 18+ years -giving it the best that you possibly can.
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    (Original post by tomcoolinguk)
    I disagree. Some women are incredibly ruthless in how they go about these things. Several girls I am actually friends with have abortion money to pay for a private abortion should they ever get pregnant, and one of them did last year- and it was all *sorted* within a month.

    In seriousness though, partial birth abortions are sometimes NEEDED. [I speak as a Catholic profoundly against abortion] The main case is eptopic pregnancies which have severely degenerated in the later stages.
    An ectopic pregnancy would NEVER develop far enough to warrant a 'partial birth' abortion - these pregnancies rarely last beyond the first trimester as the space available is too small to accommodate a growing child.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    I totally agree

    I share blissy's 'depth of thought about the issue'. I actually believe that terminating a pregnancy (and accepting that you will have to think about what you did every day for the rest of your life, wondering if it was the right thing to do or not, and having to justify yourself everytime the subject is brought up) can be the responsible thing to do if you're not ready or don't have the life experience/money/time/education...etc...etc. to have a baby and raise it for 18+ years -giving it the best that you possibly can.
    So do I - and I believe that a large proportion of women feel exactly the same way as she does. Becoming pregnant is one of the most important things that can happen to a woman, and we're programmed to have mothering instincts and want to keep the baby. Even if a woman is absolutely sure of her decision, she will usually find it an incredibly hard one to make.

    Tomcoolinguk - I wonder if you ever talked about the situation with your acquaintances who had abortions. If you had, you would probably have discovered that the whole process is not a case of thinking "I don't particularly want it right now - best get rid of it". Based on my own circle of friends (and that's all I can base it on - there are not many statistics on these things) I don't know a single woman who would take a decision like this lightly.

    There's nothing wrong with planning ahead for this sort of thing - it just shows that women think about what possible situations could crop up. Some are in the fortunate position where they can put money back to make the process less distressing for themselves and the foetus.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    An ectopic pregnancy would NEVER develop far enough to warrant a 'partial birth' abortion - these pregnancies rarely last beyond the first trimester as the space available is too small to accommodate a growing child.
    Surely the fact it would be impossible to actually give birth to an ectopic pregnancy would be the more obvious sticking point...
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    Surely the fact it would be impossible to actually give birth to an ectopic pregnancy would be the more obvious sticking point...
    Not according to our friend. That is why I clarified the obvious.

    Having said that, not all ectopics are tubal and there has been the case where a child has developed outside the womb and was successfully delivered - alive - by abdominal surgery.

    Can't remember precise details but it was world wide news a few years ago.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Not according to our friend. That is why I clarified the obvious.

    Having said that, not all ectopics are tubal and there has been the case where a child has developed outside the womb and was successfully delivered - alive - by abdominal surgery.

    Can't remember precise details but it was world wide news a few years ago.
    I know...but you can't give birth ie deliver an ectopic - something which is required for partial birth abortion.
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    I know...but you can't give birth ie deliver an ectopic - something which is required for partial birth abortion.
    Many women can't give birth ie deliver a full term baby - they have to have abdominal surgery.

    Surely a partial birth abortion is one where parts of the baby have been pulled apart during delivery - whether this is vaginally or abdominally?
Updated: December 4, 2004
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