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Why do you NOT believe in a God?

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    (Original post by Emzio)
    to believe in God one need to understand the word God, most ppl think the word God is a name but rather a title like Dr. Barrister.. just as it requires certain attributes for some1 to have these titles to their name so does the word God comes with attributes..we all believe the word God means all powerful in every way including imortality, knowin the past, the present, the future and so on cuttin to the chase..but there are some attributes to the title that some of us ignore and make stupid arguments that theres no God cuz theres no explanation to his being and science disproves that cuz everything must stem from somethin'..well I'll like those ppl to kno that another attribute to the word God is being everpresent, ie, he has no beginin or an end, if u feel is not possible and u want to disproove it be my guest and run urself to total madness..there are somethings we being humans and not God can get our heads around but that dsn't mean is not possible...again some of us does not believe in the bible purely bcuz we feel it was written by men as us but we believe in the theorys of einstein and all the science text books even though they were all written by men..we believe the writings in these books are right cuz theyv been proven with experimental data by proffesionals right, fair enuf, so has anyone ever thought that maybe these men who wrote the bible were professionals in their own right as men of God..for sure the cudnt have been retards or drunks whom wrote whatever came to their head..my point is lets not be hypocrites..
    my next point is has any1 thought humans do have some Godly attributes..those of us who knows the meanin of God will know this and hence will again not make stupid arguments like if there's God and knows the future then why does he not intervene and overide the bad decisions we make..u tell these ppl we'v got the power of free will and they'll tell u that then theres no God cuz free will and ominipotency cannot coexist..well let me tell u something those who ignore the bible as some sort of fantasy writings..some of us do not believe in creation but this is not the point here hence I'll mention it anyway, humans were created with child mentality, we new not what was wrong or good till we ate the fruit of good and evil..the bible says once that happened God himself said ''now lest cast him(human) away from the garden for he not eat from the fruit of life which will give him eternal life and will be like us''..from this is easy to say of all the attributes to God another is the ability to tell good from evil..now i want some1 to tell me why God should interfere on our decisions while we'v got the ability, the reason to make our own choices..
    Why do you join your non-connected sentences with a '...'? It makes it so confusing to read!

    You start by saying belief in God depends on definition, which is of course true of anything. However, twisting a definition of God, whittling down the list of divine attributes as given in the bible as merely metaphorical just to avoid criticism is a pathetic tactic, and it's really typical of a lot of theology. 'If a theological doctrine isn't philosophically sound, just change it or re-define it'.

    The you say, very obscurely, that we should ascribe credibility to the bible because of it's strength of writing. This is a very odd argument (if I have understood you correctly). I can think of many, more cogent, coherent, consistent, and damn well better, books written by other humans we don't need to think of as divinely inspired or guided. If you can think of any part of any holy scripture (lets not confine this to Christianity) that reveals some impressively superior intellect, why not point it out?

    Then you say that God (apparantly) created us with free will - or that we discovered free will when we tasted the fruit blah blah blah... that is literally all you are saying in the next paragraph. How is anyone to respond to such a blind conjecture?

    On the topic of free will, just as a taster in to the topic, knowing the difference between good and evil (whatever those words mean) does not automatically grant us the power to choose between them. Life is not a series of clear-cut decisions - it is more complicated than that. Involving God in this equation only worsens the problem - why would God, as He is portrayed in the Judeo-Christian tradition, grant humans free will if he could forsee that any evil would come of it? If you have a decent response to that, then answer this: could God have created a world where good things happen more often and bad things happen less?
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    (Original post by T-o dore)
    Why do you join your non-connected sentences with a '...'? It makes it so confusing to read!

    You start by saying belief in God depends on definition, which is of course true of anything. However, twisting a definition of God, whittling down the list of divine attributes as given in the bible as merely metaphorical just to avoid criticism is a pathetic tactic, and it's really typical of a lot of theology. 'If a theological doctrine isn't philosophically sound, just change it or re-define it'.

    The you say, very obscurely, that we should ascribe credibility to the bible because of it's strength of writing. This is a very odd argument (if I have understood you correctly). I can think of many, more cogent, coherent, consistent, and damn well better, books written by other humans we don't need to think of as divinely inspired or guided. If you can think of any part of any holy scripture (lets not confine this to Christianity) that reveals some impressively superior intellect, why not point it out?

    Then you say that God (apparantly) created us with free will - or that we discovered free will when we tasted the fruit blah blah blah... that is literally all you are saying in the next paragraph. How is anyone to respond to such a blind conjecture?

    On the topic of free will, just as a taster in to the topic, knowing the difference between good and evil (whatever those words mean) does not automatically grant us the power to choose between them. Life is not a series of clear-cut decisions - it is more complicated than that. Involving God in this equation only worsens the problem - why would God, as He is portrayed in the Judeo-Christian tradition, grant humans free will if he could forsee that any evil would come of it? If you have a decent response to that, then answer this: could God have created a world where good things happen more often and bad things happen less?
    I think your final paragraph is good; theists often argue that if God was so kind as to grant us free will, evil is an inexorable consequence. However it's quite clear that there could fewer natural disasters or other "evills" in the world. Interestingly enough, the inventor of calculus, Gottfriend Leibniz, proposed an argument asserting that we live in the best possible universe that could be created, and is perfectly balanced:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfri...y_and_optimism

    I thought Paul du Bois-Reymond's response to this theodicy was excellent though.
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    Why should I? I don't believe that any supernatural beings exist. God, Leprechauns, The Sphinx & Krishna.

    If you explain to me why I should believe in God but not in The Sphinx or Leprechauns or Krishna then I shall become a theist.
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    Because I have no need for him, when I feel there is a need I will invent him. Lol, well seriously I'm undecided but I feel it's not necessary to believe in him as most things I am curious about seem to be explainable by other means.
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    Because i don't want to live in a universe where one being can have such a monstrous amount of power. If god existed I'd imagine some evil being that has gone mad with power and has no respect for life. it seems almost fairytale like to say there's this guy called god and he looks out for everyone.

    I don't think science explains anywhere near everything but I don't think god exists either.
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    (Original post by Emzio)
    to believe in God one need to understand the word God, most ppl think the word God is a name but rather a title like Dr. Barrister.. just as it requires certain attributes for some1 to have these titles to their name so does the word God comes with attributes..we all believe the word God means all powerful in every way including imortality, knowin the past, the present, the future and so on cuttin to the chase..but there are some attributes to the title that some of us ignore and make stupid arguments that theres no God cuz theres no explanation to his being and science disproves that cuz everything must stem from somethin'..well I'll like those ppl to kno that another attribute to the word God is being everpresent, ie, he has no beginin or an end, if u feel is not possible and u want to disproove it be my guest and run urself to total madness..there are somethings we being humans and not God can get our heads around but that dsn't mean is not possible...again some of us does not believe in the bible purely bcuz we feel it was written by men as us but we believe in the theorys of einstein and all the science text books even though they were all written by men..we believe the writings in these books are right cuz theyv been proven with experimental data by proffesionals right, fair enuf, so has anyone ever thought that maybe these men who wrote the bible were professionals in their own right as men of God..for sure the cudnt have been retards or drunks whom wrote whatever came to their head..my point is lets not be hypocrites..
    my next point is has any1 thought humans do have some Godly attributes..those of us who knows the meanin of God will know this and hence will again not make stupid arguments like if there's God and knows the future then why does he not intervene and overide the bad decisions we make..u tell these ppl we'v got the power of free will and they'll tell u that then theres no God cuz free will and ominipotency cannot coexist..well let me tell u something those who ignore the bible as some sort of fantasy writings..some of us do not believe in creation but this is not the point here hence I'll mention it anyway, humans were created with child mentality, we new not what was wrong or good till we ate the fruit of good and evil..the bible says once that happened God himself said ''now lest cast him(human) away from the garden for he not eat from the fruit of life which will give him eternal life and will be like us''..from this is easy to say of all the attributes to God another is the ability to tell good from evil..now i want some1 to tell me why God should interfere on our decisions while we'v got the ability, the reason to make our own choices..
    Of course we can't 'disprove' that God is ever-present or that he exists at all, but then again you can't 'disprove' that Peter Pan doesn't exist. You could do countless experiments in search for Neverland by going 'second star to the right and straight on from morning'* but never find it. However of course one could argue that J. M. Barrie was being metaphorical and that only the inhabitants of Neverland can take you there (almost like other conveniently 'metaphorical' arguments of religious texts). I'm also hoping you might consider that the concept of someone being youthful for eternity is absurd, but then again - I'd also argue that some sort of 'supernatural' being existing (which always has existed) for eternity is also ridiculous. Sure, you're arguing that it's something that us humans don't understand; fair enough, however I just see that as an easy excuse for the obvious illogicality of such a complex being existing with no apparent explanation.

    for sure the [bible] cudnt have been [written by] retards or drunks whom wrote whatever came to their head
    Well it's obvious some of the stuff they wrote did come straight from their head, have you ever found any evidence for Noah's Ark? Are you saying that you also believe in the Qu'ran, or perhaps, Theogony, which describes the origins of the Ancient Greek Gods? Or was everything but The Bible written by retards or drunks?


    *I'm aware that that going 'second star to the right and straight on from morning' is ludicrous in itself, I'm merely using it as an example.
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    I place my belief in the rational context of science and the universal formulae that it unveils to us, I would like to believe in a purpose as would we all wether humanity plays host to a grain of sand in the overall purpose or not should it exist seems irrelevant for the pleasure of beauty is merely to observe.
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    It's effort.
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    Because I have no reason to?
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    (Original post by Willink)
    Because I have no reason to?
    This.
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    (Original post by Willink)
    Because I have no reason to?
    Sums it up nicely.
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    As above, there is no reason to believe in a God. Of course, you might argue that conversely, if this is the only reasoning then there is no reason why I shouldn't believe in a God. It seems circular. However, consider, I don't believe in flying pigs. Why don't I believe in flying pigs? There is no evidence to suggest they exist. The burden of proof is always on the positive, unless you believe everything imaginable exists until you prove otherwise?
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    (Original post by simontinsley)
    As above, there is no reason to believe in a God. Of course, you might argue that conversely, if this is the only reasoning then there is no reason why I shouldn't believe in a God. It seems circular. However, consider, I don't believe in flying pigs. Why don't I believe in flying pigs? There is no evidence to suggest they exist. The burden of proof is always on the positive, unless you believe everything imaginable exists until you prove otherwise?
    I used to believe exactly this until someone on this forum pointed out that it is flawed. It doesn't seem to be the case that the burden of proof is always on positive existence claims. If you and I were sitting in front of a painting and you said 'That painting exists' and I said ' That painting doesn't exist' we would't seriously consider the burden of proof upon you,would we?
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    I used to believe exactly this until someone on this forum pointed out that it is flawed. It doesn't seem to be the case that the burden of proof is always on positive existence claims. If you and I were sitting in front of a painting and you said 'That painting exists' and I said ' That painting doesn't exist' we would't seriously consider the burden of proof upon you,would we?
    The burden of proof would still be on me, yes. I would prove it by use of senses, you can see it and touch it. If you choose not to accept this as valid proof, then you can believe that nothing proven by our senses exists. However, just because there is evidence does not shift the burden of proof, merely makes the proof easier, as it were.

    I hope that makes sense, I could probably word it better.
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    (Original post by redluc)
    I am yet to find someone give me a sufficiently persuasive argument for why god let the holocaust happen.
    I completely agree with that. The Holocaust, Darfur, the Haiti earthquake - how can any being wh loves us as his own children allow that to happen?

    Thats why I dont believe - there are far too many things that have happened to turn me against the theory. I DO belive that all our great potential as human beings cannot be lost and that some part of us does continue to exist, but I don't believe in a higher that we are all answerable to.


    I guess I'm spiritual rather than religious... if that makes sense
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    (Original post by simontinsley)
    As above, there is no reason to believe in a God. Of course, you might argue that conversely, if this is the only reasoning then there is no reason why I shouldn't believe in a God. It seems circular. However, consider, I don't believe in flying pigs. Why don't I believe in flying pigs? There is no evidence to suggest they exist. The burden of proof is always on the positive, unless you believe everything imaginable exists until you prove otherwise?
    the fact that you can not see something doesn't mean is not there. hope we can agree on that

    This is all have got to say on your post.
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    (Original post by Elphaba2309)
    I completely agree with that. The Holocaust, Darfur, the Haiti earthquake - how can any being wh loves us as his own children allow that to happen?

    Thats why I dont believe - there are far too many things that have happened to turn me against the theory. I DO belive that all our great potential as human beings cannot be lost and that some part of us does continue to exist, but I don't believe in a higher that we are all answerable to.


    I guess I'm spiritual rather than religious... if that makes sense

    I understand your point, I mean why does the good Lord allows bad things to happen to the innocent. I guess that is something only he can answer. But I can assure you that no deeds of man shall be gone unaccounted, for it is written in the holy books he's set aside a day where he will sit and judge the world. believe it or not my dear friend every single deed of everyman shall be brought into judgement one day. But i guess u will only believe this if u believe in God at first place, however the fact that bad things happen to innocent men does not disqualifies the existence of the Almighty God, because on the other hand good things happens still and even to the evil man..
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    (Original post by Emzio)
    I understand your point, I mean why does the good Lord allows bad things to happen to the innocent. I guess that is something only he can answer. But I can assure you that no deeds of man shall be gone unaccounted, for it is written in the holy books he's set aside a day where he will sit and judge the world. believe it or not my dear friend every single deed of everyman shall be brought into judgement one day. But i guess u will only believe this if u believe in God at first place, however the fact that bad things happen to innocent men does not disqualifies the existence of the Almighty God, because on the other hand good things happens still and even to the evil man..
    "that is something only he can answer" - You're not addressing the issue at all, that's just like when people try to use the 'God works in mysterious ways' argument.

    As for "for it is written in the holy books"...you believe all that based on an ancient book filled with inconsistencies and contradictions, that sets out that we should stone people for working on Sundays, which gets a bit awkward seeing as vicars are paid employees. On top of that it's been interpreted and passed down through countless people, so the likelihood of any of the content of it being what actually happened back then is microscopic (it's like Chinese whispers played out over a couple thousand years). This thread is another does God exist forum, but at least try to present a reasoned argument, and not just preach at people.

    And the last bit doesn't really make sense. The idea that bad things happen to innocent people is the same injustice as good things happening to bad people, so it doesn't support your argument, and the idea that just because good things happen in the world proves the existence of an all powerful being doesn't work.
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    I was raised a Christian, but I became concerned over the possibility of having been raised in the wrong religion. I did believe in God wholeheartedly for many years, but it was an intellectual intuition that lead me to question how likely it was that Christianity was correct when there were so many other religions with proponents equally (in fact probably more) certain about their beliefs than I was about my own.

    I thought that the stakes were too high not to give it strong consideration. The stakes were, as I saw them, to be the potential for wasting my life in servitude of the wrong deity, and also the potential for spending eternity in an undesirable place. I thought that the question of what religion was actually true was incredibly important, and I was adamant that I didn't want to allow myself to become deluded in the same way that most religious people must be (because only religion could reasonably be said to be correct). I had a confidence that by looking into the matter, I would probably find good arguments to resume my practice of Christianity; I believed that I had nothing to lose at any rate because either Christianity would appear correct and my faith would be strengthened, or Christianity would appear incorrect and I'd be able to find beliefs that more adequately suited the facts without wasting time serving a mistaken ideology.

    I was shocked by what I found once I gave arguments from all places equal hearing. The arguments in favour of Christianity became utterly indefensible when contrasted against secular arguments. There wasn't a shred of actual evidence I could find which favoured Christianity over any other religion, and there wasn't any justification to hold in good conscience a faith in any of them. I wanted to believe - I liked being a Christian. Being a Christian came with a sense of certainty and stability; a confidence that you knew the way of things. Becoming an atheist on the other hand was an uncomfortable experience.

    In short, I don't believe in God today because I have attempted to give myself openly to rationality. Being a Christian was nice, but it was an error in any empirical sense.
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    (Original post by bm127)
    "that is something only he can answer" - You're not addressing the issue at all, that's just like when people try to use the 'God works in mysterious ways' argument.

    As for "for it is written in the holy books"...you believe all that based on an ancient book filled with inconsistencies and contradictions, that sets out that we should stone people for working on Sundays, which gets a bit awkward seeing as vicars are paid employees. On top of that it's been interpreted and passed down through countless people, so the likelihood of any of the content of it being what actually happened back then is microscopic (it's like Chinese whispers played out over a couple thousand years). This thread is another does God exist forum, but at least try to present a reasoned argument, and not just preach at people.

    And the last bit doesn't really make sense. The idea that bad things happen to innocent people is the same injustice as good things happening to bad people, so it doesn't support your argument, and the idea that just because good things happen in the world proves the existence of an all powerful being doesn't work.

    man let me just ask you one thing, do u think there are forces of darkness or things such as demons that can be surmoned by some incantations..or let me make this a bit simpler, do u believe in ghost??

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