[Ethereal]

Committee: The general populace of the MUN forum
Submitted by: My Ghostly self

Noting that the MUN is devoid of anything worth debating;
Further noting that it is easier to merely post condolences than it is to actually think of something to alleviate the problem;
Observing that condolence threads grow like cancer;
Decrying a worrying trend in the posting of condolences but nothing else;
Drawing to the attention of the MUN the myriad matters which are more important.

1. Proposes that threads posted merely to offer condolence be outlawed;
2. Threads which purport to offer condolence may only do so if it is within the context of actually doing something about the problem;
3. All such mere expressions of mutual grief be contained in one thread, to which be titled "MUN Condolences", and those members who feel the need to pour out some form of mutual grief do so by posting there.



It appears this is an OOC resolution, so feel free to post in your own sweet non country ways

[ukebert]

Liechtenstein offers the RSA heartfelt condolences on the fact that condolence threads affect him so deeply, and hopes that my wholehearted support in every way will go some way towards alleviating it's obviously deep psychological problem.

[Ethereal]

The RSA would like to kick Lichenstien in its collective nuts

[Captain Biggles]

Supported.

[Craghyrax]

a) This is an OOC debate, and therefore it is proposed by Ethereal, not South Africa.
b) I'm not a huge fan of the average condolence thread but I don't support the invention of an absolute ban.
First of all, such threads are very useful for members who don't yet have the confidence to propose a resolution or thread a more specific or controversial nature. If they are to be condemned for sticking to something they're comfortable with before gaining confidence, we risk alienating many new members, as opposed to incorporating them into MUN life..which is something we particularly struggle to do.
Secondly, the level of debate is not directly proportional to the activity and skill of MUN members. The MUN relies on international news for topics to discuss. Many issues which come to our attention on the news are not suitable for replication within the MUN for a number of logistical reasons. As irritating as these threads are, its nobody's fault if there's nothing other to be had when they scan the news. We are not quite in the same position as HoC where MPs have more freedom to invent (to a certain extent) policies and bills.
Thirdly, there's no harm in these threads. I challenge the suggestion that MUN is in anyway dead or free of discussion. I think this is an outdated perspective of the situation. Many of us (I'm not suggesting anybody specific) have been active members in MUN for a long time. Such a length of time makes it inevitable that certain intrinsic features of MUN activity grow cyclic and irksome. If we focus on these patterns, however, we can give them too much weight.
I personally think that discussion and activity has changed quite a bit, of late. Be that as it may, even if the forum was entirely deserted, there isn't any sense in which condolence threads can be said to exacerbate this condition, nor can we expect that such a condition would improve were condolence threads outlawed. Several of our most able members occasionally post this kind of thread. Their doing so in no way dissuades them from writing resolutions when they come across something feasible that would be in character for their particular countries. Equally, any members who post condolence threads and nothing else, are unlikely to begin drafting resolutions the moment this option is confiscated. It is more likely that they will simply drift from activity.
In this particular situation, the only constructive and/or potentially workable area to target would be mentoring.
If we can find a way for mentors to inspire new members, and to provide some form of training, we might see more individuals posting contentious threads.
Nonetheless even this is only a very small element in the influential factors at play. Many of these are harder to tackle - for instance the fact that there is a trend for people to join MUN because they like the idea and want it visible in their postbits, rather than any attraction to challenge and debate. We've seen that those who are motivated by debate tend to jump right in on joining. Equally, as mentioned before, we are unable to change the fact that the material available to us cannot always be feasibly adapted to MUN protocol, within a model and membership this small.

Having said all that - requiring thread starters to apply imagination and suggest some form of action, does sound fully worth consideration. Its the sort of thing that might enable us to link UNO activity to national rep activity somehow.

[Captain Biggles]

(Original post by Craghyrax)
Having said all that - requiring thread starters to apply imagination and suggest some form of action, does sound fully worth consideration.

Isn't that the general gist of the resolution though? To be honest, if a rep has just joined the MUN to post condolences then they're not really cut out for the forum - as harsh as that may sound, I'd rather have a few good debaters in here than have that debate diluted by the moronic message of support.

The resolution isn't outlawing it completely, more saying that nations that post must actually do a little bit of research into what they're country is doing about it. Reps won't learn anything about debating in the MUN by constantly posting condolences whereas if they do a bit of research and become a bit imaginative, we might get some good debaters who'll stick around.

[ukebert]

(Original post by Craghyrax)
a) This is an OOC debate, and therefore it is proposed by Ethereal, not South Africa.
b) I'm not a huge fan of the average condolence thread but I don't support the invention of an absolute ban.
First of all, such threads are very useful for members who don't yet have the confidence to propose a resolution or thread a more specific or controversial nature. If they are to be condemned for sticking to something they're comfortable with before gaining confidence, we risk alienating many new members, as opposed to incorporating them into MUN life..which is something we particularly struggle to do.

I don't buy this. First of all they can still post condolences, just in a more general thread. Also I think that the real testing point in the MUN is how you debate other people's threads, not how well you present your own. There have been, and probably always will be, members who hardly ever post threads but debate very well. Similarly, there are also members like me that post threads all the time but do not... never mind. I could also boast that I have never made a condolence thread, at least I don't remember making one

Secondly, the level of debate is not directly proportional to the activity and skill of MUN members. The MUN relies on international news for topics to discuss. Many issues which come to our attention on the news are not suitable for replication within the MUN for a number of logistical reasons. As irritating as these threads are, its nobody's fault if there's nothing other to be had when they scan the news. We are not quite in the same position as HoC where MPs have more freedom to invent (to a certain extent) policies and bills

This is true I suppose. We would have to think of something else. Personally I'd like to see more debate on issues that are not necessarily current but of special significance to each country. You know what I'm talking about: Position Papers. Unfortunately I and 10 Green Bottles were the only ones who seemed interested, but I think that this should be the standby for lack of international events, not condolence threads.

I'd contest the assumption that every threads must be to do with current affairs, many of mine I know are not, including my first. There will always be debate in the MUN, even when there is nothing whatsoever going on. Or there always should be.

Thirdly, there's no harm in these threads. I challenge the suggestion that MUN is in anyway dead or free of discussion. I think this is an outdated perspective of the situation. Many of us (I'm not suggesting anybody specific) have been active members in MUN for a long time. Such a length of time makes it inevitable that certain intrinsic features of MUN activity grow cyclic and irksome. If we focus on these patterns, however, we can give them too much weight

I understand what you're saying, but the fact remains that condolence threads do not inspire debate. Since we are here to debate it doesn't seem to me that too much emphasis should be placed on them. Personally I think that a condolence thread, if properly moderated, would be a much better solution, as it allows the MUN to recognise world disasters, without clogging up the sub-forum and distracting people from the issue at hand.

The same, of course, can sometimes be said of Condemnation threads, although these tend to lead to debate a lot more than condolences threads. It goes without saying of course that should discussion arise within the condolence thread, that a new thread can and should be started regarding actions following a crisis.

I personally think that discussion and activity has changed quite a bit, of late. Be that as it may, even if the forum was entirely deserted, there isn't any sense in which condolence threads can be said to exacerbate this condition, nor can we expect that such a condition would improve were condolence threads outlawed. Several of our most able members occasionally post this kind of thread. Their doing so in no way dissuades them from writing resolutions when they come across something feasible that would be in character for their particular countries. Equally, any members who post condolence threads and nothing else, are unlikely to begin drafting resolutions the moment this option is confiscated. It is more likely that they will simply drift from activity.

Hmm, possible, but difficult to determine.

In this particular situation, the only constructive and/or potentially workable area to target would be mentoring.
If we can find a way for mentors to inspire new members, and to provide some form of training, we might see more individuals posting contentious threads.

I'll drink to that. The mentoring system is incredibly important.

Nonetheless even this is only a very small element in the influential factors at play. Many of these are harder to tackle - for instance the fact that there is a trend for people to join MUN because they like the idea and want it visible in their postbits, rather than any attraction to challenge and debate. We've seen that those who are motivated by debate tend to jump right in on joining. Equally, as mentioned before, we are unable to change the fact that the material available to us cannot always be feasibly adapted to MUN protocol, within a model and membership this small.

Having said all that - requiring thread starters to apply imagination and suggest some form of action, does sound fully worth consideration. Its the sort of thing that might enable us to link UNO activity to national rep activity somehow.

The answer is Position Papers, as I've said many times before

Oh, and sorry that I lost your blue. But I can't be bothered to go through and replace the bbcode

[Captain Biggles]

(Original post by ukebert)
I'll drink to that. The mentoring system is incredibly important.

I think the mentoring system needs a kick up the proverbial bahooky. I'd definitely be up for having a set time and thread where new members (i.e. members added within a certain time period) can come together with experienced (or just any available MUN reps) to post a minor topic of discussion and then debate on it for half an hour or so. That way new reps have a chance to see the intensity of debating and the niceties (or maybe not round here at times ), plus they're able to join in freely without having to make the first move.

[ukebert]

(Original post by Captain Biggles)
I think the mentoring system needs a kick up the proverbial bahooky. I'd definitely be up for having a set time and thread where new members (i.e. members added within a certain time period) can come together with experienced (or just any available MUN reps) to post a minor topic of discussion and then debate on it for half an hour or so. That way new reps have a chance to see the intensity of debating and the niceties (or maybe not round here at times ), plus they're able to join in freely without having to make the first move.

I hope you weren't referring to anyone in particular there

That's a good idea actually, a sort of "test thread". The condolences thread could serve a similar purpose actually. In TSR, as you probably know, in debating terms it goes HYS, GD, D&D (with the MUN at the top obviously ). We could have something similar here, in which case there would be a positive advantage to having a continuously active, well moderated, stickied thread.

[Captain Biggles]

(Original post by ukebert)
That's a good idea actually, a sort of "test thread". The condolences thread could serve a similar purpose actually. In TSR, as you probably know, in debating terms it goes HYS, GD, D&D (with the MUN at the top obviously ). We could have something similar here, in which case there would be a positive advantage to having a continuously active, well moderated, stickied thread.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of; something that's easy to access and make use of for anyone that feels a bit out of their depth. Perhaps "strongly advise" new members to participate in a session or two before diving in to the serious debating, although that might put a lot of them off.

Good to get a bit of debate on the idea going.

[ukebert]

(Original post by Captain Biggles)
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of; something that's easy to access and make use of for anyone that feels a bit out of their depth. Perhaps "strongly advise" new members to participate in a session or two before diving in to the serious debating, although that might put a lot of them off.

Good to get a bit of debate on the idea going.

I wouldn't say "strongly advise". But I would encourage mentees in my introductory PM to participate, certainly. And something could be added to the n00bs guide as well. I think it could potentially work quite well.

We need more position papers though.

[Captain Biggles]

(Original post by ukebert)
We need more position papers though.

You and your bleedin' position papers...

[ukebert]

(Original post by Captain Biggles)
You and your bleedin' position papers...

I liked them

[oriel historian]

(Original post by Captain Biggles)
Perhaps "strongly advise" new members to participate in a session or two before diving in to the serious debating, although that might put a lot of them off.

Why? As a new representative myself, I don't feel it entirely necessary to have that before engaging in the serious debates.

[Teehar]

one of the reasons for my prolonged absence from the UN. I HATE them with a passion. They serve no real purpose.
resolution supported.

[quizster]

As a newbie, I'm open to anything that will make the MUN better, although I don't see a need at present, but that may well be because I'm a newbie. The only thing I wil say is, is there a problem with the 'condolence' threads? I haven't noticed one?

[Ethereal]

(Original post by quizster)
As a newbie, I'm open to anything that will make the MUN better, although I don't see a need at present, but that may well be because I'm a newbie. The only thing I wil say is, is there a problem with the 'condolence' threads? I haven't noticed one?

Apart from the proverbial yet pointless handwringing and the general inappropriateness? Condolences whilst well-meaning do not help the people that matter ie those who survived whatever killed the people we are collectively handwringing over.

[Ethereal]

I'll edit the resolution to change proposer. I wasn't sure whether or not this is truly OOC as it isn't purely administrative.

[ukebert]

Tough call.

[oriel historian]

I support this. Condelence threads add nothing to learning how to debate in the confines of the MUN and just distracts from the real purpose of the place.

Good work Ethereal.