OP: One thing you should give thought to is the fact that its Homerton. Before anyone shouts at me - I have no problem with Homerton, it is a Cambridge college and therefore offers the same academic quality to its students as any other college.

However, if a desire for the so called 'Cambridge experience' is something you really hold, then you need to give yourself a reality check. All of this is relative of course. If we have the most traditional, old fashioned college at one end of the scale and your current University at the opposite end of the scale, obviously Homerton will offer you a different and more traditional University experience because its a) a college not a University b) in an old beautiful city and part of an old and rather quirky establishment.

Homerton in comparison to some older and more traditional colleges is another matter though. Its the largest college, and therefore doesn't guarantee your knowing everyone in your college even if you're antisocial (like smaller colleges do) First year accommodation is incredibly uniform and feels more like dormitories than anything. Homerton's location encourages members of the college to base much of their social life around the college, and I know a few who report that they don't mix with the rest of the University quite as much as they might because often they don't feel like cycling into town to go out when there are plenty of nice people to hang out with at hall. They have formal hall once a week, and don't bother with gowns. They don't need gowns for matriculation. Etc etc etc.

None of the above description is biased or linked to any personal feelings about the college. I have visited it a few times and know people who go there, but that's about it. My description is based on the accounts I hear from friends who go there. Its an objective truth that if somebody applied to Cambridge in part because of its culture/tradition, then Homerton would be a bit of a disappointment, as it feels more like a regular University. In second year many students live out, which isn't really that normal for many other colleges. I know a guy who walks around in a gown with a cane everywhere in Cambridge. He did undergrad at Homerton and is doing a Masters through another college. He despised everything about Homerton and spent as much time as he possibly could socialising with people from different colleges. He is an extreme case, of course - but his reasons for wanting to be at Cambridge were certainly more than purely academic!!! Obviously I know many there who love it :smile:

yeah Craghyrax has a point. i am here atm, but to be honest its really not that that different to other colleges. people only ever focus on the old stereotypes but you need to also consider all the other 'modern' colleges. to be honest i dont find homerton to be any different to them. and in comparison to other universities we are still very traditional etc, the fact we even have matriculation, formal dinner and high tables suggests that. and unlike lots of the other new colleges we do have some old buildings.

yes we are the largest college but in terms on undergrads we are still smaller than trinity, and there are a fair few other 'large' colleges, its not like homerton is some anomaly. not everyone wants to know everyone in the college, i personally wouldnt, it would be too claustrophobic.

also, the distance is only a problem if you make it one. if i want to go somewhere i NEVER dont go simply because i 'cant be bothered' to cycle in. thats just stupid. and im fully involved in the main university life, its not like going here makes you banned. some people choose to do more college related things but thats their decision.

anyway, i admit we are not as much of what you'd expect of a cambridge college and if you are desperately looking for full on tradition then you may be disappointed, but if you're not that desperate then it'll be fine. we're simply a bit more laid back. and to be fair i've had quite a lot to do with Anglia Ruskin and whenever i come back to homerton after that i realise how traditional and cambridgey we are. in fact i get reminded of it all the time when everyone wants to work and no one wants to go out to Fez/cindies with me.

Reply 43

Arrogant Git

Craghyrax

OP: One thing you should give thought to is the fact that its Homerton. Before anyone shouts at me - I have no problem with Homerton, it is a Cambridge college and therefore offers the same academic quality to its students as any other college.

However, if a desire for the so called 'Cambridge experience' is something you really hold, then you need to give yourself a reality check. All of this is relative of course. If we have the most traditional, old fashioned college at one end of the scale and your current University at the opposite end of the scale, obviously Homerton will offer you a different and more traditional University experience because its a) a college not a University b) in an old beautiful city and part of an old and rather quirky establishment.

Homerton in comparison to some older and more traditional colleges is another matter though. Its the largest college, and therefore doesn't guarantee your knowing everyone in your college even if you're antisocial (like smaller colleges do) First year accommodation is incredibly uniform and feels more like dormitories than anything. Homerton's location encourages members of the college to base much of their social life around the college, and I know a few who report that they don't mix with the rest of the University quite as much as they might because often they don't feel like cycling into town to go out when there are plenty of nice people to hang out with at hall. They have formal hall once a week, and don't bother with gowns. They don't need gowns for matriculation. Etc etc etc.

None of the above description is biased or linked to any personal feelings about the college. I have visited it a few times and know people who go there, but that's about it. My description is based on the accounts I hear from friends who go there. Its an objective truth that if somebody applied to Cambridge in part because of its culture/tradition, then Homerton would be a bit of a disappointment, as it feels more like a regular University. In second year many students live out, which isn't really that normal for many other colleges. I know a guy who walks around in a gown with a cane everywhere in Cambridge. He did undergrad at Homerton and is doing a Masters through another college. He despised everything about Homerton and spent as much time as he possibly could socialising with people from different colleges. He is an extreme case, of course - but his reasons for wanting to be at Cambridge were certainly more than purely academic!!! Obviously I know many there who love it :smile:

Yeah, but you can perhaps understand that not everyone is desperate for the cliched and boring 'Cambridge Experience'. Also, I very much doubt life in Homerton is drastically different to life in Peterhouse or Magdelene. I'm not at Homerton, but I can imagine the college centered social life is one of its biggest advantages- I know people at other colleges (generally the slightly larger ones) who find it easier to socialise with people exactly like them from other colleges than make friends with a more diverse group of people in their own college. Being further away from town would give the college a much greater sense of community and identity than you'd find in larger central colleges and the college's status as a less popular/less traditional college gives it a much more diverse student body than comparatively homogenised colleges like Magdalene and Peterhouse.

It's worth considering that, once you remove postgrads, Homerton is about the same size as St John's and much smaller than Trinity- a fairly social person would have few issues with getting to know a majority of the undergrads. Not only that, but Homertonians seem to rarely have any trouble interacting with the rest of the university- the ADC, for example, seems to be almost an extension of Homerton. I can imagine that, had you been to an ancient public school, coming to a college as comparatively new as Homerton might be slightly disappointing. But for most of us, the beautiful Victorian buildings and the spectacular grounds of Homerton are about as far away from our school as it's possible to get. You still go Punting, May Balling, Formalling and anything else you might do at any other college.

Culture/Tradition-wise, I don't think there are many colleges that compare to Homerton. It has a long and interesting history- perhaps, one of the most interesting of any Cambridge College- it was founded 300 years ago to provide a more modern education than Oxford or Cambridge, pioneered mixed education and founded a football club that reached the FA Cup Semi-finals and played in the top-flight. But, yes, you don't have candlelit formals and you don't wear gowns. But then, if that's what you want most from Cambridge, you probably wouldn't appreciate Homerton's subtle uniqueness anyway.

Reply 44

faber niger

OP

17

Craghyrax

OP: One thing you should give thought to is the fact that its Homerton. Before anyone shouts at me - I have no problem with Homerton, it is a Cambridge college and therefore offers the same academic quality to its students as any other college.

However, if a desire for the so called 'Cambridge experience' is something you really hold, then you need to give yourself a reality check. All of this is relative of course. If we have the most traditional, old fashioned college at one end of the scale and your current University at the opposite end of the scale, obviously Homerton will offer you a different and more traditional University experience because its a) a college not a University b) in an old beautiful city and part of an old and rather quirky establishment.

Homerton in comparison to some older and more traditional colleges is another matter though. Its the largest college, and therefore doesn't guarantee your knowing everyone in your college even if you're antisocial (like smaller colleges do) First year accommodation is incredibly uniform and feels more like dormitories than anything. Homerton's location encourages members of the college to base much of their social life around the college, and I know a few who report that they don't mix with the rest of the University quite as much as they might because often they don't feel like cycling into town to go out when there are plenty of nice people to hang out with at hall. They have formal hall once a week, and don't bother with gowns. They don't need gowns for matriculation. Etc etc etc.

None of the above description is biased or linked to any personal feelings about the college. I have visited it a few times and know people who go there, but that's about it. My description is based on the accounts I hear from friends who go there. Its an objective truth that if somebody applied to Cambridge in part because of its culture/tradition, then Homerton would be a bit of a disappointment, as it feels more like a regular University. In second year many students live out, which isn't really that normal for many other colleges. I know a guy who walks around in a gown with a cane everywhere in Cambridge. He did undergrad at Homerton and is doing a Masters through another college. He despised everything about Homerton and spent as much time as he possibly could socialising with people from different colleges. He is an extreme case, of course - but his reasons for wanting to be at Cambridge were certainly more than purely academic!!! Obviously I know many there who love it :smile:

You make well-reasoned points, and I have to say that I, in my position of relative ignorance, largely agree with you. However, I must apologise for not making myself extremely clear. When I said that I wanted the Cambridge experience, I was talking wholly in academic terms. I myself am, despite being a classicist, not one for unfettered conservatism or ostentation, so not being able to whack commoners with my cane wouldn't be much of a disappointment. :p:

The one thing that would slightly annoy me is maybe not having to wear gowns for matriculation though, if we get a college photo -- which we may not. As it would look a bit odd if not everyone is wearing a gown. But that's not a major issue. I can imagine that being somewhere with great history and tradition can easily induce feelings of self-worth and entitlement, which are of course good things, but equally I would hazard to say that such feelings may make it harder for one to integrate with society as a whole, which can only be a bad thing.

So, ultimately, the only reasons I have for applying to Cambridge -- and thus Homerton -- are academic ones. Yes, it may be innately pleasing to be in a beautiful environment, which even at Homerton I'm sure I'd get my share of (incidentally Homerton looks to have quite a nice building on the website), but if that were all it came down to I would certainly stay at Manchester. I do like the idea, being working-class myself (although certainly not stereotypically or even typically so :s-smilie:

), of being in a more mixed social environment, but I would also like to involve myself with the university at large. I've heard that the Cambridge Union is quite nefarious still, is that so, as I'm involved in debating here at Manchester and would like to keep it up at some level? My accomodation here at Manchester is pretty dormitory-esque, and I don't particularly expect anything more. One issue that is on my mind though is the quality of college teaching: Homerton is at the bottom, aside from mature colleges, of the Tomkins table for whatever that's worth, and therefore it may be easy to infer that the standard of supervisions may be lesser than that at other colleges. Of course I know that there are other variables though, e.g. simply a slightly less able/motivated intake, less pressure to perform etc.

Reply 45

faber niger

OP

17

abcdefg1990

hi, I'm really glad that someone asked this question, as i was toying with the idea of doing the same next year, if i don't get into Oxford this year. however, i would have thought they wouldn't be too keen on an applicant who is already at uni. op how did u explain to Cambridge why u wanted to start in the first year at Cambridge despite already being at another uni? also does being at another uni when applying disadvantage you as an applicant?

Well, you simply apply as everyone else does through UCAS: this implies that you want to start with year one -- as does the fact that they don't accept transfers into later years. That situation doesn't in theory (and probably in practice) put you at a relative disadvantage, however, there is one issue. You need to have a letter sent from your tutor at your current university in support of your application. This sounds easy, but it may not be as you leaving could negatively affect your current university, in financial terms, and they may thus be reluctant to support you or completely unwilling. I was lucky though, as my tutor went to Cambridge himself and seemed to therefore appreciate my academic reasons for applying.

It's probably a good idea to also explain your situation in your personal statement. If you wish, you can have a glance at mine? It may also be worthwhile contacting prospective colleges and your intended Department at Cambridge, asking about the suitability of your application.

Reply 46

Arrogant Git

jismith1989

I've heard that the Cambridge Union is quite nefarious still, is that so, as I'm involved in debating here at Manchester and would like to keep it up at some level?

The Union is a bit of a joke. But so long as you never take it too seriously (and don't care too much about Union politics), you'll find it's actually pretty good. There are opportunities to debate, workshops and various other things. But I think this from the Cambridge Student sums up the Union as an institution:

The Cambridge Student

An oligarch at the Cambridge Union, what a curious juxtaposition. On the one hand, you have a renown for corruption, shady dealings and physical violence. One the other, Boris Berezovsky.

My accomodation here at Manchester is pretty dormitory-esque, and I don't particularly expect anything more. One issue that is on my mind though is the quality of college teaching: Homerton is at the bottom, aside from mature colleges, of the Tomkins table for whatever that's worth, and therefore it may be easy to infer that the standard of supervisions may be lesser than that at other colleges. Of course I know that there are other variables though, e.g. simply a slightly less able/motivated intake, less pressure to perform etc.

Tompkins Table is basically ********. Not only does it vary massively from year to year (jumps of 10 places or more are not uncommon) but it is biased in favour of science subjects. In arts subjects (classics, english, history and law spring to mind) very few people get firsts and 2.IIs- the vast majority get 2.Is (the split in some subjects is around 15:75:15) while in sciences, it is much easier to get a first, but harder to get a 2.I (the split tends to be more like (30:40:30). The way the Tompkins Table is created gives a lower rank to four 2.Is than it does to two firsts and two 2.IIs (12 points to 14). Hence, Science heavy colleges like Churchill and Trinity do much better than arts heavy colleges like Homerton.

Another factor that may explain away some differences is pressure. A friend of mine got summoned in front of the dean of discipline in her college for getting a third in a mock (not even tripos) exam. At Christ's Matriculation dinner one year, the Master told the new freshers that they would be failing their families if they got a 2.II. Certain colleges are well known for the pressure put on students and sanctions they take against those who fail to perform (canceling May Balls, pushing them down the room ballot etc). In my college (nearish the bottom of the table) we were told not to worry to much about first year exams- to enjoy exam term rather than working ourselves to death. It's less to do with less able or less motivated intake (I doubt there's much difference at all between colleges) and more to do with how much the college wants to be high up in the tompkins table.

Reply 47

Craghyrax

17

Arrogant Git

Yeah, but you can perhaps understand that not everyone is desperate for the cliched and boring 'Cambridge Experience'....

My post was already half a page long.. it would have been a full page if I included disclaimers. I said if he was after a certain type of Cambridge experience, which was phrased specifically enough to avoid communicating an assumption.
Also it was a reasonable guess that the observations might be relevant because of his willingness to leave a good University to come here.

And I personally think the notion of 'the Cambridge experience' is a bit sad and rather a myth, but like I said I also know people who have been disappointed. I have several friends from newer colleges who visited me here and couldn't shut up about how amazing Peterhouse was and how they wish they'd applied to it. If they actually were at Peterhouse maybe they'd realise that the grass is always greener on the other side, but that was my entire point: that the OP might be choosing a greener pasture only to get here and find that it wasn't the precise shade of green he'd envisioned (even if the differences are mostly imagined or overemphasised)

Also - as I'd hoped was clear from the tone of my post: I don't need someone to sell Homerton to me. I don't have any objections to the place, and I'm sure its wonderful and better than other colleges in many respects just as each college has its own unique sets of pros and cons.

Arrogant Git

Tompkins Table is basically ********. Not only does it vary massively from year to year (jumps of 10 places or more are not uncommon) but it is biased in favour of science subjects. In arts subjects (classics, english, history and law spring to mind) very few people get firsts and 2.IIs- the vast majority get 2.Is (the split in some subjects is around 15:75:15) while in sciences, it is much easier to get a first, but harder to get a 2.I (the split tends to be more like (30:40:30). The way the Tompkins Table is created gives a lower rank to four 2.Is than it does to two firsts and two 2.IIs (12 points to 14). Hence, Science heavy colleges like Churchill and Trinity do much better than arts heavy colleges like Homerton.

and thanks for the details - I was wondering.

Reply 48

faber niger

OP

17

Craghyrax

My post was already half a page long.. it would have been a full page if I included disclaimers. I said if he was after a certain type of Cambridge experience, which was phrased specifically enough to avoid communicating an assumption.
Also it was a reasonable guess that the observations might be relevant because of his willingness to leave a good University to come here.

And I personally think the notion of 'the Cambridge experience' is a bit sad and rather a myth, but like I said I also know people who have been disappointed. I have several friends from newer colleges who visited me here and couldn't shut up about how amazing Peterhouse was and how they wish they'd applied to it. If they actually were at Peterhouse maybe they'd realise that the grass is always greener on the other side, but that was my entire point: that the OP might be choosing a greener pasture only to get here and find that it wasn't the precise shade of green he'd envisioned (even if the differences are mostly imagined or overemphasised)

Also - as I'd hoped was clear from the tone of my post: I don't need someone to sell Homerton to me. I don't have any objections to the place, and I'm sure its wonderful and better than other colleges in many respects just as each college has its own unique sets of pros and cons.
:ditto:

and thanks for the details - I was wondering.

I completely agree; I'm sure that there are a lot of people who would want to apply simply for reasons of the university's repute, environment etc., so it was certainly a reasonable assumption.

By the way, I think he was 'selling' Homerton to me, though could be wrong. :smile:

And A Git ( :p:

), your arguments about the Tomkins table seem pretty reasonable, and those punishments pretty harsh! I suppose that it's perfectly possible to be with a tutor with whom you don't gel at any college and equally possible to have an exceptionally good one wherever you are. For example, my Ancient Greek tutor at Manchester is amazing -- and he taught for quite a long time at one of the Cambridge colleges towards the bottom of the table.

Reply 49

Miam!

frost3dbutts

If you apply from university do you have to start the degree over again or can you pick up from your second or third year at Oxbridge?

If I get rejected this year I'm going to keep reapplying.

Starting from your 2nd/3rd year in Cambridge could be possible depending on your course. There's someone in my year who got rejected fro Japanese at Cambridge the first time round, went to his insurance (Edinburgh), hated the course there, reapplied to Cambridge whil at Ed, got in and dropped out. And he did go straight to second year because his Japanese was very good. But this is nothing special for Jp where the dpt is really small and informal and every year you get one or 2 people who have done A-level and taught themsleves the equivalent of the first year... So yeah, it's true that they don't officially do transfers but it would depend on your course (I can see why they would let people straight into 2nd yr in languages or the sciences, where there reallty isn't any point learning the basics again, but probably not in, say, History or English, where the progression of the course is a lot less linear). Bit early for you to think about this though, better focus on getting in this year... Plus most people who say that probably end up liking their 2nd-choice uni.

Reply 50

lavalse

10

Arrogant Git

Another factor that may explain away some differences is pressure. A friend of mine got summoned in front of the dean of discipline in her college for getting a third in a mock (not even tripos) exam. At Christ's Matriculation dinner one year, the Master told the new freshers that they would be failing their families if they got a 2.II. Certain colleges are well known for the pressure put on students and sanctions they take against those who fail to perform (canceling May Balls, pushing them down the room ballot etc). In my college (nearish the bottom of the table) we were told not to worry to much about first year exams- to enjoy exam term rather than working ourselves to death. It's less to do with less able or less motivated intake (I doubt there's much difference at all between colleges) and more to do with how much the college wants to be high up in the tompkins table.

this is exactly why i'd hate to be in a more prestigious college. i love being in my laid-back college and still being a part of cambridge! its the best of both worlds. (but thats not to say my college dont really annoy me at times too...)

Reply 51

lavalse

10

Craghyrax

Also - as I'd hoped was clear from the tone of my post: I don't need someone to sell Homerton to me. I don't have any objections to the place, and I'm sure its wonderful and better than other colleges in many respects just as each college has its own unique sets of pros and cons.

to be fair your posts often seem to have a sort of disdain for homerton and other less prestigious colleges :wink:

or at least thats how my very defensive homertonian self interprets them!

Reply 52

Craghyrax

17

lavalse

to be fair your posts often seem to have a sort of disdain for homerton and other less prestigious colleges :wink:

or at least thats how my very defensive homertonian self interprets them!

Hmm. Well there isn't any disdain, so the appearance is incorrect. I have disdain for people who disdain Homerton. I like the fact that my college is old and pretty (I wouldn't agree that its prestigious) but I would still have felt very lucky if I got into any college, and would have embraced all of its good points just as enthusiastically.

Its possible to point fingers at a bunch of buildings and say that one's prettier than that one, without suggesting that there needs to be anymore than that to it. (Like in the chat thread I just countered a non-Clarer's admiration for Clare with the comment that I personally didn't like it that much, however in TCS Clare just came up as the college with the lowest % of rent increase of any college and Peterhouse came up with the highest, so in that sense I would materially rather be at Clare!)

Reply 53

Arrogant Git

lavalse

to be fair your posts often seem to have a sort of disdain for homerton and other less prestigious colleges :wink:

or at least thats how my very defensive homertonian self interprets them!

Yeah, I kind of picked up on that too. I feel the need to defend Homerton- it's too much like my college to allow it to be attacked as 'not a real Cambridge college'.

Reply 54

Craghyrax

17

I don't intend any slight on Homerton and apologise for any offence caused.

Reply 55

psanghaLFC

Anything you could gain knowledge wise from going to Oxbridge you could pretty much gain by yourself through studying (provided you study a lot). So then what is the point of wasting so much time? If one is not going to go into employment anyway, the whole "wow he's from Oxford" factor is rendered useless. Knowledge is there for everyone, not just people from a particular institution.

Reply 56

Craghyrax

17

psanghaLFC

Anything you could gain knowledge wise from going to Oxbridge you could pretty much gain by yourself through studying (provided you study a lot). So then what is the point of wasting so much time? If one is not going to go into employment anyway, the whole "wow he's from Oxford" factor is rendered useless. Knowledge is there for everyone, not just people from a particular institution.

How is that relevant to the OP of this thread? :wtf?:

Reply 57

Miam!

Craghyrax

How is that relevant to the OP of this thread? :wtf?:

Hmm he certainly means that reapplying to Oxbridge while at another uni is pointless (Oxbridge is pointless -> wasting a year to reapply to Oxbridge is even more pointless). That's the way I understand it.

And to psanghaLFC, I don't want to go in a defense of Oxbridge because that's not the subject here, but I don't agree at all. First, few people have the self-discipline to study extremely hard unless they have to. Then, even if they do, I don't agree that you can learn as much through teaching yourself as you can from a taught course. Some things I'd just never understand through self-study, that's what supervisions and lectures are for. As for an Oxbridge degree being unseless if you're not going into employment anyway, I would imagine that the academic world is really competitive and that it must actually help.

Reply 58

Pierce&Pierce

I know three people who were in first year before they transferred and started in first year again. One won a scholarship that allowed her to do so. As for the other two, one was studying biology before switching to economics; the other was studying medicine before switching to mathematics...how these two did it? Go figure.

Anyone been accepted at Oxbridge whilst already at another university?

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