[daniel_williams]

Licensing (Amendment) Bill 2008, Liberal Democrat)

Licensing (Amendment) Bill 2008

A Bill to amend the Licensing Act 2003.

In Scotland a premises which has a license to sell alcohol cannot legally refuse to serve tap water when asked upon request contrary to the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, Schedule 3, s.9(2). We feel that, in light of irresponsible drinking and hot conditions in drinking environments, can be minimised with the mandatory requirement of serving tap water upon request. Bottled water may be available but this is not always an option and is often extortionately priced so much that people are better off buying yet another alcoholic drink. We also recognise the constant failure of the law to enforce current legislation concerning people being served alcohol when they are drunk.

BE IT ENACTED by The Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Commons in this present Parliament assembled, in accordance with the provisions of the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-

1. No licensed premises is allowed to function without running tap water that is available upon request. Should a licensed premises do this they will face criminal sanction.

2. Premises may charge for tap water at no more than 25 pence per pint. This is not for the sale for the tap water but for the service.

3. This offence is a summary offence only and the sentenced of the offences will be at the discretion of the magistrate.

4. This Act extends to England & Wales only.

5. This Bill, should it receive Royal Assent, will take effect fourteen days after Royal Assent.

[SuperhansFavouriteAlsatian]

Why should they be forced to?

Don't like it? Don't go there.

[Jangrafess]

I like it. Is tap water still fine everywhere in the UK? I've been told it isn't many times, but I suspect that person was chatting crap.

[oriel historian]

Why should they have the right to charge for tap water? If it is considered a necessity to have it - which clearly, you feel it is - then it should be free of any charge.

I've only ever known tap water to be refused once and that was at a bar on a boat when they'd actually run out of clean stored water so fair enough.

Free or nothing.

[randdom]

From a health point of view I think that this is a very good idea.

Just wondering how it would be enforced?

[L i b]

Firstly, I am opposed. I disapprove of the licensing system, and as such against any increase in its conditions.

Secondly, I disagree with legally imposed pricing for anything.

Thirdly, I disagree with anyone being forced to offer anyone anything. For one, the consequences could be ridiculous - if I was to approach a bar, demand two hundred pints of water, would you seriously suggest that a barman should be charged with an offence for failing to provide them?

Fourthly, the Bill is flawed insofar as it does not offer any maximum sentence for this offence. Since I actively oppose it, I'm certainly not going to be the one to propose an amendment to this effect.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this is an example of using legislation to achieve something which can be done without legislation and without threats for failure to comply. May I suggest instead a government-endorsed scheme for proprietors to sign up to which ensures certain desirable conditions in such premises?

[paperclip]

Fantastic idea, but i think it should be free, as it is necessary.

[Metrobeans]

I like. I do think that pubs should put somewhere on their menu that "Tap water is available on request". Is that feasible to put in legislation?

[ukebert]

Firstly, should be free.

Secondly, I can imagine places where licensed premises would not be able to provide tap water for valid reasons.

[UniOfLife]

First off who wrote this Bill and how many seconds were spent on it? It's dire. Could whoever it was please find three minutes to tidy it up so that at least if it is passed it doesn't embarrass anyone who tries to read it.

Anyway onto the contents. Can anyone honestly back the idea of making it a criminal offence for someone who works in a privately owned and run establishment - which individuals enter into at their own volition to avail themselves of the services rendered thereby without any external compunction - to refuse to provide a service when asked?

I would ask where people have put their sense of morality, justice and their understanding of what is right and wrong but apparently people here never had it (sorry, had a bad day). I can't quite believe that anyone would back such an obviously terrible idea and then they demand that the service be given free! If I walk into a shop what right have I got to start making demands of the person who owns and runs the shop? If I don't like it let me go somewhere else. No-one's forcing me to stay in the pub or to buy the bottled water. You want cheap water - go to a pub that offers it. Or go home and get some. Or find a public fountain. What right have you got to demand that the owner of this private pub gives you what you demand?

So the Bill is horrible in principle. But, since this is a principle that I reckon most of the people here do not subscribe to due to lack of moral clarity and awareness of where the State ends and people begin I'll make a couple of other points.

Why a criminal offence? If you wanted to implement this horrendous idea why not have it as a condition of the licence rather than an open-ended criminal offence which is ludicrous and would only serve to make this House look like a joke as well as being one.

Why 25 pence? Whose backside did this number magically appear from?

Also:
"This Bill, should it receive Royal Assent, will take effect fourteen days after Royal Assent."

If this line were ever to become "active" then Royal Assent must have already been given.

Finally, when is the Lib Dem who wrote this going to turn up to discuss it? Or is this going to be like the last one where no one from the Party could really be bothered defending the Bill?

[ukebert]

I like the condition oof the license idea.

[davireland]

(Original post by UniOfLife)
Finally, when is the Lib Dem who wrote this going to turn up to discuss it? Or is this going to be like the last one where no one from the Party could really be bothered defending the Bill?

No we will probably get our token Lib Dem who had nothing to do with the creation of the bill yet is the only one who is bothered to defend it.

[SuperhansFavouriteAlsatian]

I agree with UoL.

[Nightowl]

I support and endorse the idea.

[Grape190190]

I agree with UoL in the sense that it shouldn't be a criminal offence - that's absurd. It's a licensing matter, surely.

[wmv94226]

If it aint a criminal offence then how do you enforce it? You can't make a law and not have any mechanisms for enforcement.

The price is there to cover the nominal cost of providing the water, i.e. the service and the cost of cleaning the glass. Not the bill does not make it compulsory to charge, it just puts a low price ceiling on water.

Aside from the acutal debate of this, I was in a pub the other night where they refused to sell spirits in 25ml measures, they'd only do them in 50ml. Bit dodgy if you ask me.

[UniOfLife]

(Original post by hldomster)
If it aint a criminal offence then how do you enforce it? You can't make a law and not have any mechanisms for enforcement.

erm, did you read my post? I ask because I said quite clearly that if you wanted to go ahead with this bad idea you should make it a condition of the licence. It's enforced by the threat of removal of the licence if breached.

(Original post by hldomster)
The price is there to cover the nominal cost of providing the water, i.e. the service and the cost of cleaning the glass. Not the bill does not make it compulsory to charge, it just puts a low price ceiling on water.

Where did the figure come from?

(Original post by hldomster)
Aside from the acutal debate of this, I was in a pub the other night where they refused to sell spirits in 25ml measures, they'd only do them in 50ml. Bit dodgy if you ask me.

What did you do? Did you stand there screeching and insisting on your right to buy 25ml measures or did you leave and find another pub that provided the service you wanted?

[Charlski]

(Original post by Jangrafess)
I like it. Is tap water still fine everywhere in the UK? I've been told it isn't many times, but I suspect that person was chatting crap.

I'm sure it's absolutely fine, I'm drinking London tap water right now (which is apparently not drinking water) and it hasn't hurt me (although I might have an immune system of steel - I accidentally drank tap water when I was in Nepal and that didn't hurt).



Anyway, I think that places having to serve tap water if requested is a very good idea. I've been to a few restaurants/pubs where tap water hasn't been available, and the bottled stuff is always ridiculously priced. Although I think that, if having it with a meal, it should be free.

[randdom]

As I said in my original post I am not sure how exactly this could be enforced.

However I think the priciple of providing free water is a good one. Clubs especially as well as a large number of pubs and bars have atmospheres are often extremely warm, people are dancing (in clubs atleast) and drinking large quantities of alcohol. Dehydration is a real possibility. So many of the clubs and bars in Brighton won't let customers have tap water and often charge for bottled water, people (especially if they are intoxicated) are unlikely to pay an extra £1 or £2 for water even if they would greatly benefit from drinking it.

So as I said from a health point of view encouraging people to drink water in these sorts of environments is important.

[SuperhansFavouriteAlsatian]

Why are pubs so different that people expect to just be able to have it fit around them, and not the other way round?