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Reply 20
00 0^0 is defined to be 0/0 0/0 which is undefined for good reason.
Reply 21
DescartesWasMyDad
I'm not saying abolish it, I'm saying it should be treated differently. If we stopped trying to use it as an integer then we get rid of all the problems. It's a fairly new addition to mathematical symbolic logic. It isn't really a quantity, measure, etc.


well yes it is
a + 0 = a
a * 1 = a

0 works perfectly under addition just like 1 under multiplication.

0^0 and 0/0 and k/0 undifined undefined because 0 doesn't really "work" with multiplication because f: x*0 -> 0 is a many to 1 function thus does not have an inverse. This does not mean that 0 isn't a quantity, and most definately does not mean it is not an integer.

Also this question comes up every few months it gets really annoying.
Reply 22
psanghaLFC
00 0^0 is defined to be 0/0 0/0 which is undefined for good reason.

since when?

Also here are the lecture notes to a lecture titled "Is there such a thing as infinity?" which goes into some of the maths involved here
DescartesWasMyDad
It isn't really a quantity, measure, etc.


Your argument is going nowhere.

It is a quantity. I have zero apples on the table. I know because I counted them.

It is a measurement. The distance between two touching objects is zero centimetres.
Dadeyemi
well yes it is
a + 0 = a
a * 1 = a

0 works perfectly under addition just like 1 under multiplication.

0^0 and 0/0 and k/0 undifined undefined because 0 doesn't really "work" with multiplication because f: x*0 -> 0 is a many to 1 function thus does not have an inverse. This does not mean that 0 isn't a quantity, and most definately does not mean it is not an integer.

Also this question comes up every few months it gets really annoying.


0 can't be represented as the quotient of two other values, so it's not a rational number. I know you can say a/0 = 0 but I don't really agree with that result either, on the same principle that I don't think 0 should be treated as a standard, natural integer.

0 terminates as 0, and is a single digit number. One of the properties of an irrational number is that the decimal expansion is infinite. So it can't be an irrational number then.

If 0 was actually a number then we wouldn't be having this debate. If you can't divide another integer by it without contradictions then clearly something is going wrong.

0/0 remains undefined because it's impossible. 0 is not really a number in the sense that 1, 2 and 3 are numbers. 0 is just an item in symbolic logic to represent zero value.
Mr M
Your argument is going nowhere.

It is a quantity. I have zero apples on the table. I know because I counted them.

It is a measurement. The distance between two touching objects is zero centimetres.


Bring me nothing of something. I challenge you.
DescartesWasMyDad
Bring me nothing of something. I challenge you.


I just did. I delivered it to you without you even noticing.
Mr M
I just did. I delivered it to you without you even noticing.


Exactly. Nothing of something isn't that something any more. It's nothing. It has no value.

Therefore 0 is a logical representation of 'no value'. Exactly what I'm trying to say. Stop treating it like an integer, it's a part of the symbolic language of mathematics.
I'm tiring of this a little but if you want to get technical zero has to be considered as an integer.

The set of integers is closed under addition. This means if you add two integers you always get another integer.

-5 + 5 = 0 hence 0 is an integer. Case closed.
Mr M
I'm tiring of this a little but if you want to get technical zero has to be considered as an integer.

The set of integers is closed under addition. This means if you add two integers you always get another integer.

-5 + 5 = 0 hence 0 is an integer. Case closed.



Ah, yes, the statement, statement, I'm right, end of argument.

Take away the symbols:

A value of negative five plus a value of positive five gives a neutral value.

I'm happy to end this anywhere but the question is still open because it's a problem in mathematics. Problems are meant to be discussed and hopefully solved. "Because it is" isn't the best reasoning.
Reply 30
Dadeyemi
since when?

Also here are the lecture notes to a lecture titled "Is there such a thing as infinity?" which goes into some of the maths involved here


If you made those notes yourself then **** you because they are useless.

On another note, I noticed you are predicted A*'s - are you supposed to put them on UCAS?
DescartesWasMyDad
0 can't be represented as the quotient of two other values, so it's not a rational number. I know you can say a/0 = 0 but I don't really agree with that result either, on the same principle that I don't think 0 should be treated as a standard, natural integer.


And zero IS a rational number because it can be expressed as in the form a/b.

Here is an example:

0/5 = 0

Oops another daft theory in the bin.
My final word on the subject is an appropriate quotation from Macbeth I thought you might like to ponder.

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying NOTHING".
Reply 33
DeanK2
If you made those notes yourself then **** you because they are useless.

On another note, I noticed you are predicted A*'s - are you supposed to put them on UCAS?


lol no they were made by Tim Gowers fields medallist, Fellow of Trinity College and Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at in the Department of Pure Mathematics and Mathematical Statistics at Cambridge University, but sure their not great.

and on your other note I don't know what your talking about...
edit: Oh I see no it was just a formatting error they are supposed to be bullet points
Reply 34
DescartesWasMyDad
0 can't be represented as the quotient of two other values, so it's not a rational number. I know you can say a/0 = 0 but I don't really agree with that result either, on the same principle that I don't think 0 should be treated as a standard, natural integer.

0 terminates as 0, and is a single digit number. One of the properties of an irrational number is that the decimal expansion is infinite. So it can't be an irrational number then.

If 0 was actually a number then we wouldn't be having this debate. If you can't divide another integer by it without contradictions then clearly something is going wrong.

0/0 remains undefined because it's impossible. 0 is not really a number in the sense that 1, 2 and 3 are numbers. 0 is just an item in symbolic logic to represent zero value.


... 0 is vital for arithmetic without 0 negative numbers don't really have a meaning as the negative (-x) of a number x is defined as x + (-x) = 0.

division isn't a basic function in that division by x is defined as multiplying by the multiplicative inverse where the multiplicative inverse (1/x) is defined as the value such that x*(1/x) = i where i is the multiplicative identity (i.e i = 1). 0 does not have an inverse as but it is still a number, I don't really see why you question 0 being a number any more than you question multiplication.

0 though most definitely being a number is not treated as normal numbers i.e. just as sqrt(-1) is a number but not a normal number. I think the problem might be that you feel numbers are things that really "exist", in truth all numbers are quite abstract concepts they are just used to model situations, just because the behaviour of 0 or sqrt(-1) doesn't match situation that you can relate to does not mean they are conceptually erroneous.
Reply 35
Notice that xx=exlnxx^x = e^{x \ln x}. Now ln0\ln 0 cetainly isn't defined, so e0ln0e^{0 \ln 0} isn't, either.
Mr M
And zero IS a rational number because it can be expressed as in the form a/b.

Here is an example:

0/5 = 0

Oops another daft theory in the bin.


Typed my 0/a=0 the wrong way round. Long night.
Dadeyemi
... 0 is vital for arithmetic without 0 negative numbers don't really have a meaning as the negative (-x) of a number x is defined as x + (-x) = 0.

division isn't a basic function in that division by x is defined as multiplying by the multiplicative inverse where the multiplicative inverse (1/x) is defined as the value such that x*(1/x) = i where i is the multiplicative identity (i.e i = 1). 0 does not have an inverse as but it is still a number, I don't really see why you question 0 being a number any more than you question multiplication.

0 though most definitely being a number is not treated as normal numbers i.e. just as sqrt(-1) is a number but not a normal number. I think the problem might be that you feel numbers are things that really "exist", in truth all numbers are quite abstract concepts they are just used to model situations, just because the behaviour of 0 or sqrt(-1) doesn't match situation that you can relate to does not mean they are conceptually erroneous.


I'm questioning it because it's an interesting point and I find if I question things as much as possible from both sides then I end up feeling a little more enlightened. I just generally pick whichever side is getting less love if it's with other people.

I'm familiar with the philosophy of mathematics and see numbers as concepts representing values that can be discovered and represented in an empirical way but being abstract exist outside of the concrete. Tennis is an abstract concept and while 'tennis' doesn't exist in the real world the concept of tennis exists separate to the real world, yadda yadda.

What I'm trying to say is that the concept of 0 doesn't represent a quantitative value and if we didn't try to treat it in the same way we would a concept that maps on to a concrete value then we'd abolish most of the 0 problems.
Reply 38
DescartesWasMyDad
What I'm trying to say is that the concept of 0 doesn't represent a quantitative value and if we didn't try to treat it in the same way we would a concept that maps on to a concrete value then we'd abolish most of the 0 problems.
Put simply, there are no "0 problems". These problems are created entirely by you based on pseudomathematics.

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