High Energy Physics

What would be the difference between studying experimental HEP and theoretical HEP as a postgrad? As far as I can see you'll not be designing or making any experiments yourself as an experimentalist so how would their work differ from a theorists?

Reply 1

Spanky Deluxe

Taking CERN as an example, an experimental HEP would spend their time sifting through the data trying to find stuff like the Higgs boson. A theorist would think up the bugger in the first place. Where are you looking to apply and what for?

Reply 2

Barny

Well, nowhere at the moment. I'm only a second year, but have an interest in HEP, and recently I've started to be interest in experimental physics too. I'd rather be doing the nitty gritty and doing experiments and analysing data than just having a mathematical brain-**** as you're seemingly expected to do as a theorist. Only problem is I study Mathematical Physics so I have zero lab time. So I was wondering if it would even be possibly to apply for an experimental physics PhD with my lack of experimental background.

Reply 3

ChemistBoy

Well, you could also be involved in instrument design and construction too. I'm not sure if having no experimental experience is neccessarily going to be a problem as you can learn most of the stuff whilst doing it anyway. Although a familiarity with electronics and vacuum technology would be an advantage. Getting a summer project in a lab using vacuum equipment or going down to Diamond would help.

Reply 4

Spanky Deluxe

Sure you could apply, there's no reason why not. If you want to maximise your chances, I'd suggest getting some work experience in during the summer hols. I'd suggest have a look at the UROP internships offered by Imperial during the Summer. I suggest those because they can often be paid. I did one and got paid for it and it was great experience. You could also try finding some experimental physicists at your uni and asking them if there's anything you could do to get experience - although don't expect any payment from that. It will really help your applications to get some experience down on your academic C.V..
Be careful though, experimental stuff can sometimes look like greener pastures when you come from the theoretical side but you chose a theoretical degree for some reason.

Reply 5

Barny

Yes, mainly because I experienced first year lab that pretty much consisted entirely of working out errors by hand, which pissed me off immensely. I was under the impression that errors weren't the sole purpose of postgraduate experimental physics. I've figured out how to do them using excel now anyway. Thanks for that heads-up re: UROP Spanky.

CB - a search on "diamond physics" didn't bring up anything useful?

I'm not even sure HEP is what I want to specialise in, preferably I'd like a field that's got some good new physics coming out of it and which requires experimental, computational and theoretical work. Any ideas?

edit: found diamond accelerator physics on the 3rd page.

Reply 6

hobnob

Barny

You should have tried wikipedia first. :wink:

Reply 7

ChemistBoy

Barny

That's interesting to know. The government and the Wellcome Trust have spent a lot of money on building a new synchrotron in Oxfordshire (they could have saved money by building it where the old one was, but that's a story for another day) and they can't get it to the top of the list on google...

Reply 8

Spanky Deluxe

Barny

Hard to say what kind of areas would have all of those. Generally experimental is made up of mostly experimental, some computational and very little theory while theoretical is made up of a lot of computational, some theoretical and next to no experimental.
Its a bit hard to say what area you'll like because you've only just started your second year. I didn't realise exactly what it was that I wanted to do until I was applying for PhDs halfway through my MSc year. Although I had narrowed it down to something in Astrophysics quite a while ago. Are you doing a BSc or an MPhys/MSci?

Reply 9

Barny

I'm doing a BSc, looking elsewhere for my MSc. I find it slightly weird that you don't do much theoretical work as an experimentalist - surely you have to see where your results fit with theory and what the implications of your results are?

Reply 10

ChemistBoy

Barny

Yes, but that's just applying models rather than exploring or changing them, for the most part (unless the data doesn't fit the model).

Reply 11

Spanky Deluxe

Experimental stuff will have a massive chunk of 'data analysis' so you'll have to use or write programs that can sift through the data and make sense of it etc. I don't know of any MSc courses in Experimental Particle Physics but I do know that Sussex offer an MSc in Theoretical Particle Physics and its meant to be pretty good. Imperial also have a Quantum Fields and Fundamental Forces MSc which is supposed to be basically theoretical particle physics but with more maths and less physics. See how you feel after your first semester of your BSc. At that point you will hopefully have a clearer idea of what you want to do. You could go straight to a PhD if you wanted with a 2.1 or 1st in a lot of fields. The likes of theoretical particle physics, string theory stuff etc usually needs a top grade MSci or a good BSc + MSc. PhD applications are usually made at the beginning of the (calendar) year. MSc applications are usually accepted throughout the year (even as little as a month or two before the course starts sometimes). You've got plenty of time to decide what you want to do. Personally, I never really liked Quantum stuff particularly and so by the time I had some particle physics lectures in my third year, I realised it wasn't really what I was interested in.

Reply 12

Barny

I'm in my second year, so have to make a decision sometime soon. Only problem is first year physics is a bit of a joke and doesn't really help you decide which area of physics you want to be involved in. I quite like the idea of data analysis but I also want to be involved in theoretical work and computational modelling. Kind of like somebody who gets the data but doesn't do the experiment, if you know what I mean. Do those sorts of roles exist?

I'm only really interested in applying to the top 5-6 Uni's to do an MSc/PhD so I doubt I'd be allowed to go straight onto a PhD at those Unis?

Reply 13

Spanky Deluxe

Computational modelling is usually limited largely to theoretical work. Don't ever say things like 'top 5-6 Uni's to do an MSc/PhD', a lot of people on here will smack you in the face for being so ignorant. League tables mean little enough to undergraduates and are next to meaningless for postgraduate work. When you're at the PhD level, its your own personal research that counts. The research reputation of departments is not linked to the university's rankings in league tables. You apply to places that do the same kind of research that you're interested in. Generally speaking, only a handful of universities do research in the kind of specific area that you'll be choosing for a PhD.

Reply 14

Barny

I disagree. Oxbridge, Imperial and UCL all have excellent research departments in Physics, and most would consider them top 5-6. In any event it's mostly due to personal circumstances and location(I want to be in London or within an hour) that I'm only considering those Unis. I don't give a **** about league tables I just used the "top-5-6" to give you a roundabout way of knowing which I'm thinking of applying to rather than listing them all here.

Reply 15

Spanky Deluxe

Most wouldn't rank universities research department in terms of top 5-6. Apart from the RAE, its down to your personal research. A PhD student from Cambridge who does mediocre research and doesn't publish anything is not going to do too well compared to a PhD student from an ex-poly who's done good research and has published several articles in journals. By all means limit your applications depending on where you want to live, I did a similar thing. Most people will throw in an Oxbridge application for the hell of it too but you've also got KCL and QMUL in London dependent on what what research interests you end up with.